Shirin Ebadi

...Q: In January 2002, President Bush named Iran as part of the "axis of evil...

...Unfortunately, fundamentalists in Iran have used this as an excuse to brand us as allies of Mr...

...I want to take my American friends back to the end of World War II, when the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was formulated...

...Q: What's your response to the argument that human rights is just a Western invention and are not applicable to the Middle East...

...Therefore, Muslim women around the world and all of those who have worked for the cause of human rights in Iran are partners in this award...

...The condition of women in Islamic societies as a whole is also far from desirable...

...They argue that cultural relativism prevents us from implementing human rights...

...A lot of people are losing their lives...

...In certain countries, the conditions are much better and in others much worse...

...Ebadi: I have never been convinced throughout my life that one needs to be imitating others...

...Any woman who wishes to travel needs the written permission of her husband...

...Even pro-Western countries are quite worried about the actions of the United States because they too, have lost their sense of trust in the U.S...

...They violate these rights and then seek refuge behind the argument that Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy...

...And I'm saying that Islam is not an excuse for thwarting democracy...

...I have said many times that I wish there was no oil in the Middle East, and more water...

...None of this has been proven...

...And yet oil seems to flow perfectly...

...Q: You've said that any person who is doing what you are doing "must live with fear from birth to death...

...How do you do away with this...

...I know of no civilization that tolerates or justifies violence, terrorism, or injustice...

...Unfortunately, the United States and a few other governments have used the war on terrorism as a way of violating human rights...

...I followed her around for much of the rest of the day as she fielded queries from law students and gave a speech on Islam and human rights, in which she condemned governments that "hide behind the shield of Islam and continue to oppress their citizens...

...Therefore, I do not acknowledge that there are various models of democracy...

...The condition of women in Pakistan is far different from that in Saudi Arabia...

...Do I need to prove that I am brave...

...Instead of dealing with the causes of terrorism, they let terrorism serve as a justification for war...

...Q: But President Bush has said the Iraq War would further the cause of freedom and democracy in the region...

...Amitabh Pal is Managing Editor of The Progressive...

...Don't forget, I'm not here to promote Islam...

...Hence, if I discontinue my work I will have succumbed to my fears...

...We need to do away with what is causing terrorism in the first place...

...Ebadi: I am Muslim, to begin with...

...It is a component of every religion and every civilization...

...On the other hand, the U.S...

...Human rights is the fruit of various civilizations...

...One of the first female judges in Iran, Ebadi lost her seat on the bench after the Iranian Revolution, when the clerics decreed that women could not serve as judges...

...Whether you like it or not, you become hungry...

...But you still see violations of women's rights in Iran...

...Q: Two criticisms of your approach have been that you are hesitant to fundamentally challenge the Islam-based sociopolitical system in Iran and that you favor Islamic democracy rather than a truly secular government...

...there is just democracy itself...

...I am referring to the case of the Guant??namo Bay prisoners...

...There was discomfort in the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction...

...How do you respond...

...Q: And what effect has the Iraq War had on Iran and other Muslim countries...

...I was one of them...

...Women are the victims of this patriarchal culture, but they are also its carriers...

...There is no civilization that justifies the killing of innocent people...

...Eleanor Roosevelt would have said if she were alive in this day and age...

...This shows that you can have different interpretations of Islam...

...The Iraqis have not been able to enjoy around-the-clock water supply and electricity...

...This is the culture we need to resist and fight...

...But I have been able to overcome my fear...

...Ebadi: The countries with important military-industrial complexes that engage in producing arms, including the United States...

...Ebadi works within the framework of Islam, attempting to come up with a progressive interpretation that provides maximum space for religious tolerance and women's rights...

...Q: When you say that countries are benefiting, do you have any particular countries in mind...

...It's perfectly OK that there are certain people who do not accept Islam at all...

...I also want to raise this important question of whether the punishment of terrorists has led to a decline in the acts of terrorism that we have witnessed...

...She told AP that "the Iranian people in the case of a war from the U.S...

...Democracy doesn't recognize east or west...

...The fifty-seven-year-old lawyer and activist has had repeated confrontations with the Iranian government over democracy freedom of speech, the rights of women, and the rights of children...

...Once you get exposed to other cultures, civilizations, and ways of thinking, this self-certainty should evaporate...

...People would have been much happier than they are right now...

...Angrily, I am trying to write on the cement wall with the bottom of my spoon that we are born to suffer because we are born in the Third World," she wrote while in confinement...

...And certainly whoever commits terrorism should be brought to justice...

...invasion of Iraq has led to a decline in American legitimacy...

...This is nothing but an excuse...

...What is important is that one utilizes one's intellect and not to be 100 percent sure about one's convictions...

...I even tell my daughters not to look at me as a model...

...However, we should acknowledge that there are differences...

...Human rights is a universal standard...

...When a person is humiliated, when his rights are being violated, and he does not have the proper education, naturally he gravitates toward terrorism...

...Shirin Ebadi: I have to begin by saying that the prize does not belong to me alone...

...Sixty-three percent of our university students are female...

...A patriarchy does not only not accept the equality of the sexes, it also has a hard time understanding the principles of democracy and its essence...

...Ebadi: Let me start with Iran...

...Ebadi: The United States insisted that it was justified in invading Iraq because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction...

...What's your view...

...Since I brought up patriarchy, let me make one thing clear...

...And the number of unemployed women is four times that of men...

...And the people of Iran and the Muslim world in general have turned against the United States because they never like a foreign occupying force in their midst...

...The present Administration should apologize to the spirit of Eleanor Roosevelt for what it has done, for the atrocities committed...

...North Americans do not understand that you do not throw down human rights like bombs on the Iraqis...

...I interviewed her in May at Syracuse University...

...Before the revolution, there were the first 100 female judges in Iran...

...In the post-September 11 world, this informed the Nobel Committee's decision to bestow her the honor...

...Ebadi: I have never agreed with President Bush's argument regarding the axis of evil...

...Do I need to be killed...

...Q: Could you tell us your assessment of the state of women in Iran and in the Muslim world...

...There is no "true Islam," just different interpretations...

...I have never had a governmental position, and I will never accept such a position...

...What effect has this had in Iran, especially on democratic forces...

...In response, I have to say, I have served time in prison, I have lost my position [as a judge...

...But that did not dampen her zeal...

...Here's a quote of yours: "One day they help the Taliban rise to power and the next they attack Afghanistan with the excuse of ousting the Taliban regime...

...Eleanor Roosevelt played a crucial role in assembling this group of people...

...Ebadi: Certainly, the fight against terrorism is a legitimate fight...

...Bush...

...Unfortunately, violence begets violence...

...Ebadi: First and foremost, people have lost their sense of trust in U.S...

...Many children are losing their parents...

...This violation of the rights of prisoners has been so unbelievable that the United Nations has reminded the United States repeatedly that the treatment of prisoners should take place according to the preestablished conventions of the United Nations...

...Every time I am fearful I think to myself, the reason they do this is to discourage me from doing what I do...

...And we need to do away with injustice throughout the world, which is a major culprit...

...If the United States is fighting the war on terrorism in the wrong way, then what is the right way to fight Islamic fundamentalism and Al Qaeda...

...But my aim is to show that those governments that violate the rights of people by invoking the name of Islam have been misusing Islam...

...He can divorce his wife without offering any reason, while it is quite difficult for a woman to get a divorce...

...foreign policy...

...After the 1979 revolution, they argued that women cannot be judges, and they made us all into peons in the ministry of justice...

...Finally, I believe in God...

...Even though she is the first Iranian to be awarded the Nobel, the government downplayed her achievement, with President Mohammad Khatami saying that the prize would have been more significant if she had been awarded it for scientific or literary achievements...

...The interview is put together from my meeting with her and the questions she answered at the law school and after her talk...

...It is a pleasure for the Norwegian Nobel Committee to award the Peace Prize to a woman who is part of the Muslim world, and of whom that world can be proud-along with all who fight for human rights wherever they live," the committee stated...

...Needless to say, the dominant culture is going to insist on an interpretation of religion that happens to favor men...

...These are all hypotheses...

...Whenever women protest and ask for their rights, they are silenced with the argument that the laws are justified under Islam...

...Ebadi has harsh words for the Bush Administration, its war on Iraq, and its bluster about Iran...

...We wrote essays, held protests, and organized conferences to insist that women being judges was not incompatible with Islam...

...Ebadi: How can you defy fear...

...The awarding of this prize to me is a recognition by the international community of the cause of Islamic feminism...

...She is currently representing the family of an Iranian-Canadian photojournalist, Zahra Kazemi, who was beaten to death in an Iranian prison in July 2003...

...Q: You're the first Muslim woman to receive the Nobel Peace Prize...

...In fact, I'm promoting democracy...

...It is an unfounded argument...

...Terrorism is based on two major pillars: One is injustice, and the other is a certainty of attitude, the notion that their version of the story is the correct one...

...I am addressing the issue of inequality of genders...

...But some, as you said, criticize me, thinking I'm too tolerant of the clerical regime in Iran...

...Do you feel it to be a burden to be representing Muslim women...

...Q: Who have been your role models and inspirations...

...invasion of Iraq has created solidarity and unity among the Iraqi people because they all now have a common denominator, which is the expulsion of the United States from Iraq...

...A group of thinkers met to come up with ways and means to prevent yet another war...

...After twenty years, they finally accepted the argument and said, OK, women can be judges...

...We also have to acknowledge that certain groups and countries benefit from waging war...

...Similarly with fear...

...The state-run television did not broadcast her acceptance speech last December because, by not wearing a headscarf, she was in violation of the official dress code for women...

...This helps make me strong...

...democracy is simply people's will...

...Everyone's condition is different, and the way that each person lives his or her life is different...

...What do you think Mrs...

...It is not Islam at fault, but rather the patriarchal culture that uses its own interpretations to justify whatever it wants...

...It utilizes psychology to say that women are emotional...

...People's ignorance of the region and Western imperial interests over oil are the main reasons why we are where we are now in the region...

...I am 100 percent sure that the U.S...

...And that is why the name of the United States is synonymous with the cause of human rights around the world...

...When we criticize in Iran the actions of the government, the fundamentalists say that we and the Bush Administration are in the same camp...

...It utilizes medical science to say that men's brains are formed in such a way that they are better able to understand concepts...

...Too many houses are being destroyed...

...Bush can never be situated in the same group...

...One should always leave room for doubt...

...Fear is a human instinct, just like hunger...

...Unfortunately, the answer is a negative, since terrorism seems to be on a rise, not a decline...

...The Nobel Committee commended her in its announcement as a "courageous person" who "has never heeded the threats to her own safety" and has "consistently supported nonviolence...

...Q: I wanted to move on to President Bush's war on terrorism...

...Islam has its own preachers...

...And, unfortunately, the arms industry seems to flourish...

...will be united to stop an occupation of their country...

...In person, Ebadi exuded a dignity that was formal but still friendly...

...Those who are invoking cultural relativism are really using that as an excuse for violating human rights and to put a cultural mask on the face of what they're doing...

...The funny thing is that human rights activists and Mr...

...Despite the fact that the United States has been in Iraq for many months, there is still no security to be found there...

...But women resisted...

...And this is how the war on terrorism seems to be going at this juncture...

...So, as you can see, one day they interpret Islam in such a way that women cannot be judges and the next day they manage to reverse themselves...

...How...

...Let us keep in mind that every oppressive man was raised in the confines of his mother's home...

...A Muslim man can have up to four wives...

...Now what has happened to the glorious American civilization that has brought us to the present phase when we see those despicable pictures of mistreated Iraqi prisoners...

...She was at the law school for a speaking engagement...

...But this is basically to save face...

...For example, the conditions women face even in Egypt differ a whole lot from what their Iranian counterparts deal with...

...I am not singling out men...

...This prize truly belongs to all of those who have worked for the cause of human rights in Iran...

...She has been imprisoned for uncovering government complicity in the killings of dissident students and suspended from legal practice, and she has, by her account, escaped two assassination attempts...

...Ebadi: The idea of cultural relativism is nothing but an excuse to violate human rights...

...Today, she still practices law and takes on the government...

...By promoting education throughout the world...

...But I have learned to train myself to live with this fear...

...To influence public opinion, to counter criticism, the United States then came with a second reason to invade Iraq-that it had invaded Iraq to advance democracy and human rights...

...This way of thinking-this self-certainty-is based on not being educated...

...She warmly responded to my questions, only momentarily showing a flash of anger when I alluded to criticism of her work...

...The testimony of two women is equal to that of one man...

...Therefore, to announce that I am a Muslim can rub some people the wrong way...

...Her activism hasn't endeared her to the Iranian authorities...

...She was wearing dark blue pants with a formal matching top and was without a headscarf, quite a different outfit from what she would be allowed to wear back home...