ERRORS OF ENTHUSIASM'

...And we expected him to respond in accordance with his,culture— and he did not...

...And then you say, "Mr...

...The memory of getting bogged down in a war in a foreign country is certainly very real in this country...

...Q: What happens if you have someone like Marcos in power and incapable of change, even in his own interest...

...they're a harassing force...

...the Sandinistas are not in that tenuous position today...

...We're talking about it in great detail...

...I think the President will find it very difficult to invade Nicaragua with U.S...

...Q: Do you see the United States invading Nicaragua...

...Q: Why were they upset about Mauritius...

...The negotiations will be a little bit half-hearted, and the pressures will be stronger and stronger, but I don't think the pressures will drag the Sandinistas down as the President desires...

...The Progressive believes they add up to an articulate presentation of the liberal foreign policy position—the kind that might be revived once the Democratic Party returns to power in Washington...

...Q: Do you see, perhaps, a desire this time to have our candidate in place and ready before Marcos falls, so that the insurgents and the communist guerrillas do not have the advantage...

...How did you find working with them...

...Second, it's been going on for three-plus years, and it hasn't achieved what it set out to do, topple the government of Nicaragua...

...And so they said to themselves, "Let's hunker down for a while until this storm passes, or we may bring down our agency itself...

...Errors of Enthusiasm' A former CIA chief frets about the Agency's abuses EDITOR'S NOTE: It isn't every day that a former Director of Central Intelligence admits that the CIA supports murderers and terrorists in Nicaragua, or acknowledges that the Agency has regularly violated constitutional rights, contravened the principles of democracy, and engaged in inhumane and shameful conduct...

...It's going to hurt the CIA very badly, I'm afraid...

...TURNER: It's all been persiflage that they're trying to stop the flow of arms...

...The people they're supporting down there are committing murders and terrorism and so on...

...TURNER: To try to overthrow them...

...TURNER: No, I still see a strong resistance to anything like that from the public in the United States...

...That's very difficult to do, and I doubt that we're able to do much in that direction...

...Is there now a proliferation of adventures in the Reagan Administration's CIA...

...TURNER: Because they were having an election, I think...

...We want to be friends with your country fifty years from now...

...So all I'm saying is, there is a place for the secret covert foreign policy, but it ought to be reserved for situations when we're willing to risk contravening the principles of democracy...

...Second, it will hurt it in the shorter term, because the CIA in itself will retrench again and stop taking risks, stop doing good human intelligence, in order not to be criticized further...

...And if the citizens say, "We don't think we want to do this," I don't care how convinced the executive branch is that it's a good thing to do...

...TURNER: You're right...

...There will be a mix of negotiations and pressure...

...It's easy to see Marcos has a problem...

...his military and his police and his SAVAK would have gone, and they would have taken care of the problem...

...What I'm saying to you is that the professionals did not understand that in order to get back in business, you've got to have oversight, you've got to have accountability...

...It clearly is not secret, right...

...Most of the bad ones were Congressional staff people from very right-wing Congressmen...

...However you look at it, we've been supporting people who are trying to overthrow the government of Nicaragua...

...It's not just that they're mining harbors...

...She spoke with Turner just before publication of his new book, Secrecy and Democracy: The CIA in Transition...

...Therefore, we assumed that he would do that, he would knock enough heads, kill enough people in the streets, to retain his throne...

...Or the CIA professionals stopped taking risks because they felt that if they made another mistake, they would bring down another wave of criticism, another set of investigations...

...TURNER: I think the President will gradually have his way...

...Second, it must be achievable...

...BY CLAUDIA DREIFUS ¦ JUBILATION I IN TRANSITION Q: Let's start by asking what the reaction was within the CIA when Ronald Reagan beat Jimmy Carter in the 1980 election...

...that was just dumb...

...Though Admiral Turner airs some of the CIA's dirty linen and attacks Reagan Administration practices, his views may strike many readers as hopelessly naive at best and viciously cold-blooded at worst...

...military forces...

...These are very legitimate activities, from my point of view, for our Government to undertake...

...I think if you could do it—three conditions have to be met before you can undertake that kind of an activity...

...TURNER: I don't know...

...The CIA is supporting terrorism in Nicaragua...

...We love your country, and we have a responsibility for it...

...There are times when we want, we need, to have covert foreign policy, but those should be reserved for very important instances, because it contravenes the basic principles of an open government, in which the people, through their Congress, pass judgment on what the government is doing...

...The 1978 Act governs electronic surveillance in "national security" cases.] And I said, "Fine, but I'd like you to know that since we've had that Act in effect to control electronic eavesdropping in America, we're getting a lot more electronic eavesdropping than we ever did before, for the following reasons, and so on...

...And last, I don't think it fits in with the law that says it's really important to our national security...

...Do you know where Mauritius is...

...And so we were going to back the guys we liked...

...Q: Do you suspect this not to be the case in Nicaragua...

...If the public finds more cause to complain about what the CIA is doing in Nicaragua, and criticizes it more, it will do two things: First, it will lower the CIA's prestige in the country, and that will hurt it in many ways, particularly in the way of not attracting into it dedicated, patriotic men and women which it needs to keep it going over the years...

...And now the Reagan Administration sees a problem in any old country and says, "Let's do it with covert means...

...intelligence apparatus in the Carter Administration, comes clean in this conversation with Claudia Dreifus, whose interviews have appeared in Playboy, The Dial, and Mademoiselle, as well as The Progressive...

...Barry Goldwater, the strongest supporter of intelligence in the whole Congress, wrote to Mr...

...So when you get the public saying, "These guys are running off on their own, they're not doing what they're supposed to do under the law," it's going to hurt the CIA in the long run...

...Because without it, they're going to grind to a halt again...

...For a supposedly nonpolitical place, they were practically jumping up and down in the halls, because they thought they were going to get much more support out of a conservative Administration...

...It's blowing the problem out of proportion...

...I think a lot of people are ashamed that our country is involved in this kind of activity—it isn't becoming...

...We may get there, but that's some years down the track...

...And in 1954, we toppled a government that was leftist-leaning in Guatemala, and we did it with a handful of people and very little money...

...Because they found out that it was a good thing...

...But the wrong guys were going to win...

...In September 1982, Secretary of State George Shultz went to the Congress and said, "No, we've changed our objectives down there, because we no longer have any evidence that there's a significant flow of arms...

...Very little check on what it was doing...

...If he had been willing, in the early stages of the demonstrations against him, to step in and knock some heads and kill some people—I'm not saying he should have, I'm not taking a moral position on the issue, I'm saying that's what we anticipated he would do...

...They were generally errors of excessive enthusiasm, to get the job done, to protect the country...

...Goldwater was chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.] And the CIA was complying with the law in its letter but not its spirit, which was my interpretation of what was happening...

...So they shifted the tune, because they didn't have the evidence to support the other charge...

...TURNER: Oh, yes...

...If you do away with the oversight, as the Reagan Administration has tried hard to do, you know in five years, ten years, they'll make some more mistakes without being held accountable, and we'll be back to 1975 again...

...I don't think it's easy to see that the revolution is going to spread from one island to the next and overwhelm the capital, or that there's going to be a spontaneous upheaval in Manila...

...Another thing, there's a risk to our democratic process in this country...

...So I think the Nicaraguan thing, which is not working, will achieve nothing and will cost us a great deal in terms of the prestige and the standing of the CIA in this country...

...But I've looked at almost all the places they're trying, and from what I've heard, there just wasn't an adequate opportunity to do something with covert means...

...In all three categories, the Nicaraguan covert action fails...

...When you and I aren't checked on, we do things a little more casually than we do otherwise, right...

...I hear some noises about Marcos...

...The day after Reagan was elected, the place was jubilant...

...TURNER: Then you're going to have an explosion, and I think we have to be prepared to cut our ties to people like that who won't change...

...I don't see any real conclusion to it...

...It's a complicated thing...

...The President had to tell Congress that the interests of national security were being endangered by Nicaragua, but that's a little extreme at this point...

...That's what we've been trying to do all along...

...And third, it must be capable of being kept secret...

...They wouldn't have taken care of the problem forever, but he would not have fallen from his throne in January 1979 as he did...

...It's different to talk about riots in Watts than about riots in Tehran, right...

...Q: So you are a strong supporter, Admiral Turner, of Congressional oversight of the CIA...

...They're conscientious people, they're fine people, they're dedicated to their country...

...That was foolish...

...This was about a week before the Inauguration, and they went all that time-November, December, January—and they hadn't even understood what the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was all about...

...The acting head of the team came to me one day and said, "We're going to repeal the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act the day of the Inauguration...

...TURNER: Who is going to predict whether Marcos is going to fall this month, next year, three years from now...

...If you pick up the newspaper almost any day, you read about it...

...And I think that's why there's such opposition to the contras in the United States...

...And you go to the leader and say, "Look, we have taken the pulse of the country, and we think you have a really serious problem here...

...When you start down that track, it leads to all kinds of excessive actions...

...If it were really important to the country, the people would be behind it...

...Q: What is your personal feeling when you pick up a newspaper and read about the mining of harbors and the support for contra troops who are killing all kinds of people...

...What we want to see in the next year is some real movement on your part, to correct these perceived grievances...

...Even the President talks about it now, though he didn't for the first year or so...

...And failing that, we're going to have to begin to withdraw support from you, even at the cost of moving our bases, because we're really anxious to be friends with the Philippine people for a long period of time, and we don't think we can do that under the present circumstances...

...And when those came out, as they always will in a democracy—that's the beauty of our open society—that's when the CIA ground to a halt...

...I mean, the way you would expect the Shah's regime to respond to riots in Tehran is different from the way you would expect us to respond to riots in Watts, California...

...IOVERTHROWING THE SANDINISTAS Q: What do you think the Reagan Administration is trying to do in Nicaragua...

...It wouldn't be the end of the world...

...TURNER: They were just unbelievable...

...Maybe they're getting funding illegally from other countries to support this...

...Marcos, we have a long-standing relationship with you...

...They admitted they started a covert action in a little country called Mauritius...

...They were ideologues...

...I hope not, but it's already hurt the CIA...

...Q: An error—why...

...What grieves me is seeing the CIA have its integrity impugned...

...And I think the Nicaraguan government may be getting on top of that more as time goes by...

...There were revelations of errors in the past...

...ITHE CIA OUT OF CONTROL...

...Q: Off Africa somewhere...

...Under those circumstances, the CIA people made some errors...

...Q: The Reagan Administration began by saying it was supporting the contras as a means of stopping alleged arms flows from Nicaragua to El Salvador...

...Casey and said, "I'm pissed off...

...TURNER: Well, I grieve...

...That's very damaging...

...But it's what they've been trying to do, and there's no question about it in anybody's mind...

...He has no reservations about meddling in other nations' affairs or even about overthrowing their governments...

...Maybe the CIA has issued a manual on assassination, and the President himself has had to recall that manual...

...No reason...

...TURNER: They're trying adventures in more places...

...I want to make it absolutely clear, I'm not a peacenik who's opposed to using covert action...

...It's against the law—the Congress actually passed a law that said you can't do that...

...Marcos is going to fall, one way or another, but when...

...But what hurts is when the public thinks the CIA is out of control...

...TURNER: The President revealed it recently when he said, well, we want to get rid of the Sandinista government...

...I don't believe they are a necessity...

...TURNER: I don't think there's a difference in emphasis, with one exception— and that's covert action...

...They had made these mistakes, the mistakes were uncovered, and they were ordered to stop doing some of these things by the Congress or the White House...

...Q: You were still the CIA director when the Reagan transition team came to McLean...

...But if you ask the American people, 99 per cent wouldn't have any idea of where Mauritius is...

...We think you're in a period of political trouble, and if we stay as closely allied to you as we are, we're not going to be friends with the Philippine people when you leave...

...But in that process, they violated a lot of Americans' constitutional rights, and they did some inhumane things, things we should be ashamed of as a country...

...I am not at all against trying to overthrow unfriendly governments by covert means...

...But there are some limits, and I would list three...

...And if he had raised his hand and said, "Go...

...It was a very authoritarian society...

...Maybe they're mining the harbors of Nicaragua, and the President himself has had to tell them to stop mining the harbors of Nicaragua...

...I don't think it's ever going to do that...

...We want him to permit a democratic alternative to develop, so that we're not out in the cold if and when he leaves...

...There was no accountability of American intelligence from 1947 until about 1976—thirty years, roughly...

...Do you see President Marcos falling in the near future...

...All along, there's only been one objective—to overthrow the government of Nicaragua...

...I don't know if it's true or not, but there is that accusation...

...There are stories, a story almost every day, about some new accusation, right or wrong, as to what the CIA may be doing illegally, improperly, unethically, in Nicaragua...

...The contras are doing things that I'm ashamed of hearing that the United States is doing...

...Not too many, but some grievous ones...

...IPROLIFERATION OF ADVENTURES Q: In your book, Secrecy and Democracy, you say that the CIA you ran recognized the limits of covert action...

...TURNER: Jubilation...

...I'm not a peacenik who's opposed to interfering in the affairs of other countries...

...Q: Do you think that's a wise policy...

...The contras are not going to get to be a force that could do a real invasion...

...TURNER: The CIA has suffered already, and it's going to be the fall guy when this thing falls apart...

...Q: Given all that, is there a tremendous difference between the kind of CIA you ran for Jimmy Carter's Administration and the kind we have today under Ronald Reagan and his director, William Casey...

...We're not in an emergency situation with respect to Nicaragua...

...It's an island in the Indian Ocean...

...Now that's a very big exception, and a great big error on the Reagan Administration's part...

...TURNER: Sure, we're for elections...

...It's only in totalitarian governments that the executive branch has a right to tell the people, "We have a right to do it regardless of . what you think...

...It says like a bell ringing in a steeple, "We the people do not see this as important to the national security," which is what the law says...

...But Stansfield Turner, who headed the U.S...

...First—and this is specified in the law, the Hughes-Ryan Amendment of 1974—it must be important to the national security...

...INOISES ABOUT MARCOS Q: To move to another part of the world, what is going to happen in the Philippines...

...He was pissed off because he wasn't being informed, as the law of this country requires...

...So we suggest that you really ought to listen to what we're saying and start doing something to correct these problems...

...TURNER: There was no reason in September-October 1978 that the Shah of Iran could not have kept the dissidents under control...

...Basically, the Philippines are a tremendous convenience...

...You can't pass judgment when it's secret...

...When the people of the country demand that Congress cut off the covert action, that is an absolutely clear tocsin...

...Why didn't the CIA, then, pick up on the Shah's vulnerability...

...Senate] began investigating intelligence, the CIA was badly hurt...

...What follows is an unusual glimpse into the mind of an official who recently held office at the highest levels of the "national security" system...

...Q: But Admiral Turner, aren't we for elections...

...The way you have to handle Marcos, I believe, is to have good intelligence that tells you how serious the problem is, and where it's located...

...I think it would be possible for us to move out of our bases in the Philippines...

...Not a procedure, a law...

...They asked him, do you really mean that, and he backpedaled and put it into different terms, but he said it very forthrightly...

...When our whole policy toward Nicaragua is founded on so-called covert activity, the people of this country, the Congress of this country, have great difficulty passing judgment on the executive branch of the Government in its policy toward Nicaragua...

...TURNER: There is no question that it's not the case, because it has created such divisiveness within the American body politic...

...Q: In Iran, in the 1970s, you had a situation similar to the one you've just described in the Philippines...

...If you're not held accountable, you'll make decisions differently than when you know you're going to be held accountable...

...Q: What kind of a scenario do you see for the United States in Nicaragua...

...They never did repeal it...

...Admiral Turner is remarkably outspoken in his criticism of CIA abuses, but he continues to accept the Agency's basic rationale—that the United States must resort to covert action to pursue its interests abroad...

...You see, we are hypnotized by the fact that in 1953, the CIA helped to restore the Shah of Iran to his throne, and that we did that with a handful of people and a very little bit of money...

...They're not anywhere near that...

...When the Church Committee [of the U.S...