SENATOR ARBUTHNOT AND THE AMERICAN WAY

...So I say, let us move forward but weigh our steps carefully...

...And I can only say that I don't place much stock in those reports...

...and South Vietnamese officials . . . estimate, in their planning, that the war will last from three to seven years more...

...A. Well, I'd say that was a sort of contradiction in terms because I don't see how you could hold a free election unless it was so strictly supervised that you wouldn't let the Cong terrorize the voters, in which case I have every reason to believe that they would be repudiated...

...As I've often said, young man, patience and prudence sometimes bring the greatest dividends...

...A. Now, I didn't say amnesty...

...In fact, as you know, I think we must be very careful about any negotiations...

...A. Now, I think you'll have to ask others that question...

...Some observers say they believe there is a division in Hanoi between the pro-Russian and pro-Chinese factions and that bombings of the North strengthen the "hawks" there...

...A. Gladly...

...Obviously, if the war drags on, it would be a factor...

...I have to respect that kind of intelligence...

...But we must also be careful that we do not let the enemy know too much...

...A. I, of course, do not have such exact information...

...Q. But on the same day, a report from Saigon in The New York Times said "about 96,000 men deserted from South Vietnam's armed forces last year, nearly half of the American force that has been committed to that country...

...Q. When...

...Of course, freedom of speech is a keystone of our republic, and, as you journalists say, the people's right to know is vital...

...A. I most certainly would be...

...I said it would be all right with me if they came along with the fellows from Hanoi...

...How do you feel about that...

...Q. Didn't they miscalculate Red China's intentions during the Korean War...

...Have you considered that possibility...

...A. The way I see it, that's a long way down the road because I believe the first step is to stop the aggression and root out the Vietcong, and once we've done that, I think any election would pretty well take care of itself...

...And let me say just one more thing in this tragic time...

...Q. You mean, you feel we'll be able to avoid an election until we've had a decisive military victory...

...A. Indeed they did...

...Senator Arbuthnot and the American Way by JAMES A. WECHSLER (In an exclusive, unrecorded interview, we herewith bring up to date the views of Senator Arbuthnot, a self-proclaimed man-of-the-middle, on the situation in Vietnam...

...A. I think they would begin to disappear once they stopped getting any help...

...Q. Senator Arbuthnot, since you last granted us an interview on your views on Vietnam, there have been a number of developments...

...A. Ah, yes—depending on what the terms were, of course...

...And that is why I have greater respect for their opinion now, because I'm sure they learned their lesson...

...Q. Would you care to sum up your position as of today...

...And so I say we have to draw the line between our own hearings and what others may be privileged to hear...

...But I don't want us to buy peace at any price...

...You know, that's what the Marines and Navy have always tried to do and I'm gratified that the policy has been extended...

...Q. Senator, one final question...

...But I'm sure we would not want to promote any radical social experiments too quickly...

...Q. There has been increasing discussion about whether we should permit the Vietcong to participate independently in any negotiation...

...A. Now, I didn't say that...

...If those fellows up North want to include them, I wouldn't be too happy about that either...

...Q. But what would there be to negotiate if we said in advance that the Vietcong couldn't be considered as part of any government...

...Q. Senator, do you feel there is increased danger of conflict with Red China if the war in Vietnam expands...

...Q. A few days later another report from Saigon said and I quote: "Senior U.S...

...I'm for letting Peking know that we can't be pushed around in Asia, but at the same time avoiding a major conflict with the masses of Red China...

...Have any of them changed your basic attitude...

...Now, what I hear is that things will be different this year...

...A. Well, that's a question of timing...

...A. Ah, but that was last year...

...I mean we would make exceptions for those who showed a willingness to cooperate with the government...

...A. Now, I have always prided myself on being a realist...

...A. Well, now I don't have all the facts...

...A. That's the legitimate government, isn't it...

...That is the American way...

...We'll have a lot of elections before that . . . Q. Are you suggesting that the prolongation of the war could be a factor in the elections of 1968 or even 1966...

...A. I think we must realize that we can't expect any miracles...

...On the other hand, I certainly want to emphasize that we're in South Vietnam, in my opinion, to uphold the right of self-determination for the people there —let's not forget that objective...

...Q. Then you seem to be saying that the people would prefer a negotiated settlement...

...As you know, I'm very suspicious about any reports of Communists disagreeing with each other...

...I'm for doing everything we can to win this war without suffering a lot more casualties...

...A. I have considered all possibilities with the limited information at my disposal...

...But I am also mindful that we must be wary of washing our soiled linen in public...

...A. Well, now, I have great respect for the Senator from New York and his late brother, but I don't see why we have to say anything to the Vietcong as long as they're engaged in this aggression...

...Q. I mean, would you say that you would become impatient in three or four or five years . . . A. Now, I'm certainly not talking about any time period like that...

...Q. But Secretary McNamara and others have admitted that the Vietcong now control about seventy-five per cent of the country...

...Speaking for myself, as I have repeatedly made clear, I favor negotiations as long as the Communists understand that we're not going to let them move in on that government and take it over...

...Q. Senator, do you feel that the Fulbright hearings on Vietnam were constructive...

...But I notice that when Vice President Humphrey came back, he said "the tide of battle" had turned in our favor...

...His most recent book is "Reflections of an Angry Middle-aged Editor...

...Now, the best intelligence officials say they don't believe there is a real risk of the Chinese Reds coming in unless something unforeseen occurs...

...Then, if those Cong fellows agree to behave, I think we could tell them that we'd leave them alone...

...Could you give us your reactions to that report...

...But I'm told that General Ky and his men are going to make a much bigger effort...

...A. Well, as Secretary of State Dean Rusk has said, if they stopped the aggression from the North, this whole thing could be settled fast...

...A. Well, now, General Ky is a very patriotic man and, as Vice President Humphrey has pointed out, he knows the nature of the Communist enemy and you can't blame him for speaking his mind...

...Q. But Secretary Rusk has said that if the Communists should win a free election in Vietnam, we'd abide by the result...

...Q. With General Ky's government...

...A. I think I made clear that we might consider talking to them once they lay down their arms...

...Now, of course, there must be improvements in the internal life of that country...

...I still stand by what I have said before— there must be no appeasement, but we must avoid any involvement in a large war that would mean sacrificing thousands of American lives...

...A. Now, certainly, I was distressed when I saw that article, and I think there must have been a lot of Americans who shared my feelings, but I am naturally of a positive turn of mind and I prefer to believe that things will move much more quickly...

...Q. Then you feel the strength of the Vietcong is really just an optical illusion, in a sense...

...But once those fellows in Hanoi know the game is up, you'll see that the Vietcong don't represent much of that country at all...

...I think this could be the most sinister form of Communist propaganda...

...A. I didn't say that for certain, but that is the direction of my thinking...

...And I'm sure, if you'll allow me a play on words, that what they'll determine will be right, not left...

...A. Now, that is the way it may seem...

...Q. But how do you reconcile his statements with President Johnson's statements that the door is always open to negotiations...

...Q. But haven't there been many earlier promises of reform in South Vietnam that were never followed up...

...Thank you, Senator Arbuthnot...

...A. That is very much on my mind...

...Q. But would you expect them to give up all the areas they control just in return for some form of amnesty...

...Now, I don't say they have to do that "abjectly...

...A. Yes, I believe that is true...

...Now, as I understand it, we've said we're willing to have them come to the negotiations as part of a delegation from Hanoi...

...Now, if this report turned out to be true, I would take a very grave view of it...

...JAMES A. WECHSLER is editor of the editorial page of The New York Post and a regular columnist for that newspaper...

...Q. How did you feel about General Ky's statement at Honolulu that he was opposed to any negotiations in which the Vietcong took part in any way...

...Q. Do you feel that can be stopped without much bigger American action...

...Q. But suppose it were an internationally-supervised election and they did win...

...But we shall have to wait and see...

...Senator Robert Kennedy has suggested that we can't expect any real negotiations unless the Vietcong are plainly told that we're not demanding "abject surrender...

...Q. Senator Arbuthnot, another recent dispatch to The New York Times reports that "officials in Saigon are privately voicing concern that the Honolulu conference of American and South Vietnamese leaders may have raised unrealistic expectations for rapid political and economic progress...

...A. Now, I yield to no man in my respect for the Senator from Arkansas...

...I'm for negotiating if that doesn't mean doing business with the Vietcong and, in the Vice President's phrase, letting the fox into the chicken coop...

...Q. Sir, I wonder if we could go back to one point about negotiations...

...Q. Then I assume you would be opposed to negotiations that allowed the Vietcong to come into the governmental structure in any way...

...Q. Do you see any chance for a negotiated settlement if we aren't prepared to recognize the Vietcong's role in some future government...

...How do you reconcile that report with the optimistic analysis of the Vice President...

...I certainly don't want to see us get into a major war with the Chinese Reds...

...Q. But do you see any chance of achieving peace if we don't talk directly to the people who are fighting us...

...Now, of course, if the Administration has given us incorrect information, that's their problem...

...I'm very pleased at the announcement that the Army and Air Forces have instructed their personnel to bring personal messages to the relatives and families of men who are killed or missing in action...

...After all, we would not want to seem to be imposing Communistic ideas on these people who are so resolutely fighting Communism...

...A. Well, like all Americans, I have been closely following the events...

...A. I agree with Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey—at least with what I last heard him say—that we certainly can't expect the South Vietnam government to sit down with the assassins who have been trying to rob its house...

...Q. But it seems to control only a fraction of South Vietnam...

...But this is a matter of principle, not arithmetic...