A Talk with the Editor of 'Ogonyok'
MIHAJLOV, MIHAJLO
SPECTATOR AND PARTICIPANT A Talk with the Editor of 'Ogonyok By Mihajlo Mihajlov Vitaly A. Korotich, editor of the Soviet political and cultural weekly Ogonyok, founded in 1923, covered...
...Democracy, after all, is a brutal thing...
...Despite all of my democratic convictions, it is Gorbachev I want to rely on now...
...Forins tance, theauthorities react quite differently to the rallies of Pamyat than to those of the Democratic Union [a small party formed last year calling for a multiparty system and private enterprise...
...I am often asked here whether one political party is really enough for the Soviet Union...
...Most of those who are designated by this somewhat vague term "dissident" wish only to understand what is going on and to try to improve things...
...What was your impression...
...People tell me we need different parties...
...On the one hand, there is a justified demand to recognize and develop the national culture and the national language, and to give their due to those national cultural figures whose works were banned for many years...
...For instance, when a delegation of the Soviet Filmmakers' Union went to Poland they were smart enough to take along some Soviet documentaries of the 1920s, the period of very bitter fighting between Soviet and Polishforces...
...And the fact that the new president of Latvia has the [Russian] name Anatoly Gorbunov, and that there are demonstrations in Riga with such slogans as "Assist Our President," "Defend Our President" or "Support Our President"—this fact is a good example of both national broad-mindedness and national dignity...
...As one of the morons was waving his arms at me and yelling, "Mason, Mason, Mason...
...Mihajlov: Still, it is only one step toward democracy because one third of the Congress of Deputies will not be popularly elected, and because informal organizations are not permitted to nominate candidates...
...But one should not make it a principle that the state must always be governed by cooks...
...Alekseyev is merely seething with desire to get back at those who won't let him regain his former status, and Bondarchuk also feels he has been personally scorned...
...It should be said here that Gorbachev is very honest and that he is doing a lot to have the nationalities issue settled in a fair manner...
...When I visited Copenhagen recently, I spoke with local journalists who were praising the standard of living in their country...
...I saw how a man who is popular in his country nevertheless had to give up his post...
...And no Marxist theoretician could have imagined it...
...To shift the blame for everything on Stalin amounts, to a large extent, to denigrating the people who found themselves in a specific historic situation...
...Mihajlov: In its first issue of this year Ogonyok had an extremely interesting article suggesting that even the nomenklatura [the entrenched bureaucracy] ought to benefit from perestroïka...
...Bondarchuk has been one of the most prosperous Soviet film directors and he did produce some interesting works in the past...
...True, some people suffered, some people had troubles, some people were doing something for democracy while Gorbachev was merely a regional Party secretary...
...Korotich: It was wonderful—the atmosphere, the festive air...
...For it turns out that people can discuss things, become smarter, yet the regime does not collapse, all the dire predictions of the bureaucrats notwithstanding...
...During an election campaign it may seem that the candidates, if locked up in one room, would strangle each other...
...Such a program, in my view, would lie beyond the limits of existing laws...
...If we can achieve that, we shall have achieved very much...
...What I am concerned about is that they are able to take hundreds of people out into the street, as they did in Leningrad...
...Now, that's dangerous...
...But they would have been appalled to learn that there are those among us who think nothing has changed in social thinking over the last 140 years...
...Rather, it would bring the leadership up to the level I believe Gorbachev is striving to achieve through the process oî perestroïka...
...It was Gorbachev who introduced these democratic options, and he deserves our trust...
...I believe that if we were not afraid to discuss things and listen to our opponents, as well as allies, much could be clarified with no harm whatsoever...
...The passengers had to ask each other where they were at the moment...
...Any issue may also be discussed at the plenum of the Central Committee this coming summer...
...Such arguments were common in Spain after the end of the Franco period, when they debated who had done more for democracy—the émigrés or those who stayed in Spain, or some other group still...
...He also was, to a certain degree, aproduct of his time...
...Lenin died on the job, Stalin died on the job, Khrushchev was ousted, and each of his successors died on the job...
...In addition, the commissions that are screening the candidates have an enormous influence of their own...
...Then we'll understand what it is...
...It's hard to say if there's any pattern, and I actually don't think there's one...
...Korotich: I don't believe so...
...I don't think that is good...
...Mihajlov: The author of an article about dissidents in a recent issue of [the Soviet Peace Committee monthly] XX Century and Peace observes that the present leaders of the USSR are saying many of the same things the dissidents were saying 20 years ago...
...Time will show what organizational shape this pluralism of views will take...
...I thought to myself, what on earth could someone like him know about Masons...
...I don't want to make any guesses...
...Mihajlov: You said that you did not receive the letter of the Polish intellectuals...
...Korotich: No...
...The country was deluged with those tapes...
...Marxist theory was crushed by Stalin's purge...
...Ours may be one of the few European countries that never fully benefited from the Revolution...
...I do not want to say that one nationalism is a legitimate form of defense against another nationalism, but we are looking here at a very complex web of problems, including problems of economic nature...
...The current situation in the Ukraine is complicated...
...In my opinion, Marxist-Leninist theory is worthy of further development...
...Did you receive their letter...
...Not one of them knew that Goldschtiicker was the chairman of the Union of Writers of Czechoslovakia in 1968 and played a certain role in the events there...
...In our country nationalism is often confused with provincialism, with a desire to keep one's comfortable niche...
...Again, one could understand those who came to the Party Congress in 1921 straight from the battlefields and said, "They are shooting at us, and here some people within the Party support our enemies, cut out this nonsense...
...At the heart of their stance, is the impulse to bang the fist on the table and demand, "Be quiet and do as you are told...
...I very much like our now openly discussing many questions...
...They pretend to represent a position, while in fact they are being manipulated, they are being used...
...It is not worthy of their talent and we'll see how things develop...
...The names of many staff employees and free-lance contributors are no longer taboo in the Soviet Union...
...Since you were one of those to whom this letter was sent, may I ask about your position on the issue...
...Before that there was a meeting in Copenhagen with the same participants and others—like Grigory Baklanov, Fazil Iskander...
...We could even tape the debate so that more people could see it...
...We need theory, especially since the theory of socialism is being developed today in the world...
...Mihajlov: At your lecture at the Kennan Institute in Washington you showed a videotape of members of the Pamyat society attempting to disrupt a nomination meeting of voters—and supporters of Pamyat will be among the Deputies elected...
...People should be limited in what they can say only by the Constitution and by the Criminal Code...
...Korotich: Radio Liberty is not duty bound to be in favor of the Soviet system, but the Soviet Union does not have to be obliged to listen only to friendly opinions...
...He displayed much more tolerance and kindness than some of my compatriots and showed a good deal of understanding for many problems of our Socialist development...
...Particularly under Soviet conditions, that requires a developed infrastructure and people to write their slogans and arm them with a theory...
...We should reflect more on how to survive together in this world and seek ways to understand each other...
...One magazine in Czechoslovakia recently ran a very nasty article about democratization in the USSR...
...Gorbachev is a representative of the smart wing of the Party apparatus...
...We ought to be aware from the very beginning that they are just as good as those who have won, that everyone competed for the sake of the people and the country...
...At times this leads to paradoxical situations...
...Mihajlov: Yugoslavia had its perestroika much earlier...
...One could assume this is merely a transitory stage of democratic development resulting from the low level of political culture...
...Yet when the elections are over, the one who loses congratulates the winner and says he'd be happy to help him justify the trust of the American people...
...The more interesting and truthful our own media become, the less will one be inclined to listen to foreign broadcasts...
...He accepts the will of the people...
...But if we want democratization we must analyze current processes and stay on top of them, rather than pretend they don't exist...
...Mihajlo Mihajlov met Korotich at the inaugural events in Washington last month...
...Some of our people are reluctant to mention Katyn, but it is much worse to have it talked about only in private...
...In any case, these broadcasts may become part of the normal democratic process and contribute to the pluralism of views...
...This is crucially necessary...
...You see, our bureaucrats think in apocalyptic terms...
...He does not retreat into a bunker and get his machine gun ready...
...But the letter to Pravda was also signed by such people as [Sergei] Bondarchuk and Mikhail Alekseyev...
...I regard statements of this kind as monstrous and I will be against allowing them to be formulated as a program...
...The only thing that matters is that the decisive factor should be the will of the people...
...It was only at the next stage that democracy in Spain took hold...
...In other words, Rasputin or Belov may have their own convictions, and they are certainly free to defend them...
...Korotich: Certainly...
...I remember traveling by train there, and as the train entered the territory of a different republic the station names would be announced in a new language...
...All of us are tired of hatred...
...A book may be banned in one republic but not in another...
...Yet consider how even Pravda instantly rushes to the defense of [the Russian nationalist journai] Mo/odaiagvardia and doesn't lift a finger if someone makes mincemeat out of Ogonyok...
...We are at present witnessing the first signs of dynamic processes...
...I suddenly realized that I had never witnessed a normal succession of power...
...After Gorbachev's visit to Poland last July, it was suggested—and a timely suggestion it was—that a joint SovietPolish commission be created to explore the controversial issues in the relations between our countries...
...All this is good, all this is needed...
...Do you think something along these lines could happen in the Soviet Union...
...One should just honestly take part in the election, and then we'll see...
...It is also why I really like what I'd call the theatrics of U.S...
...In Estonia we are witnessing a very interesting movement along the lines of regional self-financing and other purely economic factors...
...There is nothing wrong with Russian serving in the Soviet Union as a kind of Esperanto for the entire country, so long as this doesn't humiliate other national groups and infringe on their rights...
...One writer, speaking at the plenary meeting of the Union of Writers, stated that we needed separate reservations [for ethnic minorities] and so forth...
...We should stop sweeping things under the rug...
...There is no other choice...
...Mihajlov: It would seem that sooner or later it might become necessary to annul the decision of the 10th Party Congress forbidding all factions within the Party...
...It was not only funny, it was sad to see an adult man made to behave like a fool...
...We did not want to respond publicly to it, but if we had received from Prague a gesture of support for the process of democratization in the USSR, we would have welcomed it...
...Stalin interpreted many Marxist principles in accordance with his ignorance, with his very primitive philosophy...
...The situation in Yugoslavia speaks for itself, it seems to me...
...Many people there think that when they lack something it is because Russians have taken it, while many Russians say that things they need themselves are going to Eastern Europe...
...Sometimes I get pretty absurd letters, like those from foreign anti-Semitic organizations that send me their appeals to clear the USSR of that unpleasant tribe...
...But there was another letter recently from a group of Czechoslovak intellectuals, addressed to the same Soviet cultural figures...
...Katyn is a very complex old issue that should be settled on the basis of historic records...
...Marxism, as the formula we are taught from childhood goes, is not a dogma but a guideline for action...
...Let's get down to business, and then everything will be clear...
...It is obviously important to say now that Marxist theory should change under new conditions...
...A few months ago in Barcelona I met with Zdenek Mlynar, a wellknown participant of these events, and I had a very good conversation with him on the local TV...
...The only response was, "Mason, Mason, Mason...
...Korotich: I certainly would have used that letter, had I received it...
...I don't want to name names, but I'd like to point out that those who exaggerate the criminal nature of dissent, of disagreement with many existing dogmas—rather peaceful disagreement, I might add— are not always motivated by a desire to strengthen the Socialist system in the USSR...
...Presidential inauguration...
...Let us just do what needs to be done...
...They never even tried to send it to me...
...We should see it as a dynamic theory that is subject to discussion and even criticism...
...But we can see how the political activity of the masses is taking an increasingly clear shape...
...A single statement liketheone made at the meeting of the Russian writers about setting up reservations may insult thousands of people...
...Let's remember that they ought to develop under the conditions of glasnost...
...Russia's brains were kicked out and the most intellectual government was replaced by the most administrative government...
...The author of Russian Themes, Underground Notes and Unscientific Thoughts, Mihajlov came to this countrv in 1978 and is currently an analyst and commentator with Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty...
...As for the deputies who will be appointed, people change in the course of work...
...I said to them that the comfortable life they enjoyed was, to a large extent, the result of the Revolution in Russia in 1917...
...There is a certain image of Pamyat as an organization of kindly folks whose sole wish is to preserve historical monuments, and thus a feeling that one need not be concerned if sometimes they hold noisy meetings...
...Mihajlov: The concept is fine, but it contradicts a basic Marxist idea that, in turn, came to be developed ad absurdum by Lenin, who stated that any cook should be able to govern the state...
...That political clown Dmitri Vassilyev [the head of Pamyat] is merely a decoy...
...Korotich: There is nothing wrong, of course, with letting cooks govern the state, although at the same time it should be remembered that someone must make the soup...
...He ultimately quit the race because the chairman of the election committee in his district refused to register all proposed candidates...
...Obviously, it is necessary to discuss it with the documents and protocols on the table, because this issue won't go away...
...Some letters I get, others I don't...
...It is in the interest of some people to create amyth about abloodthirsty tribe of dissidents who want to destroy us all...
...It is quite possible that the new Supreme Soviet will include those who do not agree with many things...
...According to some observers, if the Deputies elect Gorbachev President, he will be harder to replace because his removal would have to be approved not only by the Politburo but by the Deputies...
...Then, probably in the fall, there will be elections to the republican Supreme Soviets and local governing bodies...
...For instance, spreading pornography, or inciting war, racism or hatred between nations should not be allowed...
...Consider this: If someone needs Pamyat or other chauvinist organizations, what is he looking for in their activities...
...All the black marketeers and shady musical entrepreneurs vanished and the situation became normal at once...
...In a country that never had political struggle (we have already mentioned the ban on factions within the Party), never had pluralism of opinion, a new movement may take a perverse, ugly form...
...A professional politician ought to possess legal and other specialized knowledge and be responsible for his actions...
...That includes providing opportunities for the study of national languages, for maintaining a full national life in the republics and so on...
...They'll be in a better position to do that...
...Korotich: Democracy is developing...
...It is important to distinguish, however, between the nomenklatura and what may be called a political class...
...Do you have any comments...
...I am well aware that it might have been better if the whole process were a bit more gradual, yet I am also aware that Gorbachev needs an elected parliament right now...
...I don't want to blame everything on Stalin...
...But there is nationalism and nationalism...
...Relations between workers and employers, conditions in Denmark and in its Parliament—all of this was greatly influenced by what happened in Petrograd in 1917...
...Mihajlov: Do you agree with Lenin's thesis that the nationalism of a dominant nation is more dangerous than that of a small nation...
...That is nonsense...
...That'swhatl'dwant...
...It is very important for our country to speed up the process of reelecting members of some Party organs...
...Being able to accept the will of the people is a very important lesson of democracy...
...While I am certain that it would not be supported by the people of our country, it can provoke many very complex developments that may be difficult to deal with...
...Unfortunately, many things of that kind are taking place...
...This means that someone else assisted those people, someone else made their poster for them...
...What do you think of these developments...
...There is nothing wrong with the Latvian decision to institute an exam in Latvian for those who wish to study at the University of Riga...
...Take Romania, which is quite independent nationally yet anything but democratic...
...I'd like to add that some honest people, like the writer [Victor] Astafyev, at times find themselves involved in all these affairs and make some absurd statements...
...This is the most terrible blow to the dogmatists and bureaucrats in our country...
...It's difficult to say why I didn't...
...It needs to be understood now in our country, becauseif we want to have multicandidate elections there will certainly be those who will lose...
...But we must live to see the day when people can say what they think and not be afraid that they'll be imprisoned for doing so...
...Even Lenin, I am sure, could hardly have foreseen what Stalin did to the country...
...It is worth remembering that Lenin's was one of the most intellectual governments of the period, consisting of such people as [Leon] Trotsky, [Nikolai I.] Bukharin, [Grigory Y.] Zinoviev, and [Aleksei I.] Rykov...
...But let's come back to the Prague experience...
...This is why I continue to think that national movements in the USSR are justified, but one must be acutely aware that in a country which never had any movements, never had any discussions, many of these movements may now take a pathological form because of the low level of political culture...
...In the interest of both nations, they asked for the publication of archival documents on Katyn...
...My response is that what we definitely need is different views...
...So G d like to stress one point...
...Korotich: Soon we'll elect the national Congress of Deputies...
...In Warsaw these documentaries aroused great interest, and they helped settle some disputes because the discussion was very frank...
...In broader terms, a similar sort of decentralization may occur in Eastern Europe and in the USSR itself...
...We shouldn't try to conceal a disease...
...One of the signers, [Valentin] Rasputin, is a very good and a very original writer, but it seems to me that his public statements in support of Pamyat and his deeply felt yet somewhat provincial declarations about the outside threats to the Russian culture are unworthy of his talent...
...Yet such things as chauvinist demonstrations in Leningrad, in Moscow and somewhere in Siberia, plus ethnic clashes in Transcaucasia, make it possible for Gorbachev's opponents to say that all this is a direct result of perestroïka and democratizaton...
...For Stalin, Marxism was primarily a concept of hatred, of class struggle, according to which all proletarians everywhere were the same and united they would defeat everyone...
...We have done enough of that...
...Perhaps Marxist theory could still have developed in Russia, but by 1922 the Idealist philosophers had already been thrown out, 140 of them altogether, plus university rectors from Petrograd and Moscow...
...What concerns me about the Pamyat society amid all this is that the most obvious way to harm Gorbachev now is to create evidence that the process of democratization means smashed windows in government offices, street violence, public demonstrations, and scandals...
...When they disrupted our nomination meeting they were yelling and waving a poster that said, "Korotich is a new Goldschtiicker...
...Perhaps some things shouldn't be taken to the point of the absurd...
...If the Chinese have a reason to call themselves Marxists, and so do the Yugoslavs, the Hungarians, the Soviets, the Poles, the Romanians, then we ought to pay tribute to Marx and Engels, who more than 140 years ago formulated the essence of this movement...
...I am ready to take part in any discussion...
...Mihajlov: We in the West at times have an impression that the Soviet authorities, in a sense, condone the activities of Pamyat...
...Strange as it may seem, in many Soviet regions and national republics they are trying to blame their economic problems on Russians who, one is told, just came and grabbed everything...
...It is simply that they find [Aitmatov's and Bykov's] artistic standards unacceptable, and they'd rather proclaim their own illiteracy the standard of national cultural development...
...SPECTATOR AND PARTICIPANT A Talk with the Editor of 'Ogonyok By Mihajlo Mihajlov Vitaly A. Korotich, editor of the Soviet political and cultural weekly Ogonyok, founded in 1923, covered President George Bush's inauguration for the Chicago Tribune at the newspaper's invitation...
...In our country, where fiction alone is published in 80 languages, quite a storm of protest is possible...
...Then everything will work out fine...
...If a virgin stays a virgin on an uninhabited island, that for me is not enough reason to praise her morals...
...I don't want to comment now on the affairs of other countries, but I think it should be clear to anyone that in Yugoslavia they didn't find an ideal solution...
...A prominent Ukrainian poet before he assumed his present post two and a half years ago, Korotich has moved the magazine to the front line of the "new thinking" in the USSR...
...When after another Party Congress that Stalin himself called "The Congress of Victors" all discussions were banned, that was terrible, that was a victory pregnant with defeat...
...On the other hand, some writers are trying to argue that their books are not popular because of the intrigues of Russian chauvinists...
...Perhaps not everything will be ideal at present...
...As it happens though, he initiated the current process and turned out to be the most liberal of leaders...
...Sometimes I receive rather extremist nationalist manifestoes from representatives of various ethnic groups in the Soviet Union...
...It didn't turn out to be as simple as that...
...Marx was a great philosopher and an original thinker who attempted to reform the life of mankind...
...There will also be the media commenting upon it all...
...Could you comment on that...
...The Germans tried to speculate about it during the Nazi occupation, the Poles have raised it, and Soviet historians have approached it in various ways...
...One can only regret it if truly talented people become involved with provocateurs...
...I wish I knew why a copy of [the émigré journal] Veche with some chauvinist articles will reach me, while a letter from Poland won't...
...It is easier, in other words, for the local leaders to say that Russia is taking everything than to admit that they themselves are unable to run an efficient economy...
...The sooner we do this, the better...
...It seems that the authorities support Pamyat...
...Korotich: Iwouldn'tsay the authorities support Pamyat directly, but there is definitely greater tolerance of it...
...But when I see how the same Pamyat receives encouragement and inspiration from the outside, that worries me a great deal...
...That is the proper level to discuss any issue...
...That's something we don't need...
...In Barcelona, for instance, a whole group of us sat talking side by side, including [the émigrés] Andrei Sinyavsky, Valéry Chalidze and Mlynar—different people having interesting conversations...
...In the case of the Democratic Union I am worried about something different —about a kind of isolationism on the part of its adherents, a lack of involvement with many current developments in the country...
...Many political movements in the country are only at their early stage...
...Mikhail Alekseyev, editor-in-chief of the [nationalist] literary monthly Moskva, received a vote of no confidence for political reasons at a meeting of Moscow writers who demanded his removal [from the post of a secretary of the Union of Writers...
...Gorbachev has categorically rebuffed attempts to force this point of view upon him...
...Gorbachev is no dissident...
...It is Stalin's bills, as well as [Nikita S.] Khrushchev's and [Leonid I.] Brezhnev's, that we are paying...
...What would happen then...
...It's an entirely different sort of thinking...
...Let me give you an example...
...It is hard to thoroughly shake up a huge country...
...And in Russia proper it is the Jews who are viewed as the "Russians," the greedy outsiders who grab everything for themselves...
...In general, we should stop acting weak...
...Most of them are addressed to me...
...When the Filmmakers' Union was electa ing its leadership, however, everyone voted against him because his reputation was far from unblemished...
...Similar thinking may also be at work in Eastern Europe...
...Our history has shown us how dangerous that can be...
...I can imagine the situation in 1921: The Civil War is going on, and all these factions are making coup attempts, exploding bombs—the Left Social-Revolutionaries are endangering everything, the Anarchists are planning an assassination...
...Pamyat, with its show of force, its threatening letters, is in fact deliberately challenging the authorities to resort to countermeasures...
...When some Kirghiz writers tell me that they don't like Chinghiz Aitmatov, or when some Byelorussian writers say the same about Vasil Bykov—this is no nationalism...
...I am interested in what's going on...
...A professional political class would in no way diminish the democratic character of the leadership...
...But I wish I had received that letter, especially since [Polish film director] Andrzej Wajda raised this issue during our recent conversation and we talked about it...
...It only makes them more appealing...
...Similarly, I have great respect for Vastly Belov [another nationalist writer], who may indeed have Pamyat connections either because of his level of education or because of the way he sees things...
...While these men often quarreled among themselves, essentially they all were pursuing one idea, and that was important...
...It would be absurd to blame all the present misfortunes of the USSR on perestroika...
...But I haven't seen this letter, and it is not that, shall we say, a certain type of letter doesn' t reach me...
...We are now thinking about the necessity of having professional politicians, people who will devote their lives to politics and will run for deputies' seats...
...At the same time, paradoxical as it may seem, this will to a great extent guarantee democracy and the normal development of the country...
...The nationalism of a large nation may provoke opposing nationalist sentiments as a form of self-defense...
...Since we'll be conducting our discussions in a new way, I don't want to make any forecasts concerning the details of our future development...
...Recently he was a major target of the extreme Right- wing group Pamyat—notable for its antiSemitic and xenophobic slogans—when his name was put forward as a candidate for the Soviet Congress of Deputies to be elected March 26...
...And it was something totally new to me...
...Say the country became decentralized and turned into 15 one-party states, among which Estonia, for instance, would be relatively more liberal and Uzbekistan would be less so—the way in Yugoslavia Slovenia is more, and Macedonia less, liberal...
...But it is a fact that at least some members of the new Congress of Deputies will be elected in a democratic fashion, and they will be able to speak out...
...He concludes that the regime itself has become dissident these days...
...I am happy to have different points of view expressed, although I may not agree with all of them...
...I once even said jokingly that all the items needed both in Eastern Europe and in the USSR probably can be found in trains concentrated in [the border town of] Chop...
...Then there are purely national issues...
...Everything else one should be able to discuss and debate...
...The situation in the country is tense as it is...
...I do not care whether their meetings are noisy...
...Let us not argue about dissidents and nondissidents...
...So now Gorbachev is paying someone else's bills...
...It is difficult to predict how they will act in a parliament that has a powerful democratic impulse...
...Nor had my parents...
...That would make things clearer...
...The real reason for shortages, of course, is that we do not know how to be efficient...
...What happened to our villages, for instance, was so terrible that today, I think, it is the main problem of the reform in the USSR...
...But there are extremely Right-wing views, racist and chauvinist views, that I will never accept and that I do not believe anyone has a right to express...
...But decentralization without democratization resulted in Yugoslavia becoming several separate one-party systems, according to the number of republics...
...The point is that this system has a certain ability for self-preservation...
...The Yugoslav scholar and writer has been a frequent contributor to these pages since his long article, "Moscow Summer"—banned by Marshal Josip Broz Tito—appeared in The New Leader of March 29, 1965...
...He said some very interesting and profound things, and I even saved a tape in case someone wanted to say something bad about Mlynar...
...With a certain apprehension, I thought about how important it is for [Mikhail S.] Gorbachev to create an atmosphere that would permit a man who will continue his policy to be elected in a democratic way...
...They are convinced that the Soviet regime might be toppled by just about anything—by the publication of Doctor Zhivago, by three people coming out to the street with some irritating slogan...
...Banning foreign radios and jamming their broadcasts these days is senseless, absurd and unnecessary...
...So much for the discussion...
...After all, these Pamyat folks are nothing...
...This is all very good...
...Mihajlov: Last December the Soviet government stopped jamming Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty...
...That's why it is so necessary for Marxist theory to be developed now in conditions of free thinking...
...Let those three come out with their slogan...
...But when right now some people say that because our country is facing difficulties the dissenters ought to be silenced, that is something else...
...It finds adherents among many interesting philosophers...
...What can I say...
...Mihajlov: Last May, when the Soviet press for the first time raised the matter of [the mass murder of Polish officers in] Katyn, a group of Polish intellectuals sent an appeal toyouandtoother leading perestroïka figures...
...Some observers have drawn a parallel with the last years of the Franco regime when one third of the Spanish Senate was not elected but appointed...
...Behind him there are fellows armed with brass knuckles...
...Yet I am certain he could not have foreseen the present level of industrial development and the present state of the working class...
...That is their right, and it is perfectly legitimate...
...For instance, I have seen their Glasnost magazine edited by [Sergei] Grigoryants only once, when the New York Times correspondent showed it to me in Moscow...
...Korotich: I think that any expression of opinion is permissible as long as it does not violate the Criminal Code and the Constitution...
...I asked those who were demonstrating if they knew who Goldschtiicker was...
...I can see why that decision was taken...
...The task of ranking usisbestleftto our grandchildren...
...Recently, too, Pravda printed a letter by seven Soviet cultural figures criticizing Ogonyok...
...Korotich: It is certainly in the interest of the nomenklatura to avoid rotting from within...
...That is dangerous because there are many who point to their activities to show that democratization will lead to all kinds of civil disorders and, therefore, we need an iron fist to keep the nation in line...
...When Pamyat tried to disrupt our meeting, I suggested, "Let me and anyone who wants to be my opponent come to the stage, and let us have a discussion...
...Korotich: I can very well imagine a Supreme Soviet with members who may not rise and applaud when the country's leaders enter the room...
...One result of the friendship he struck up with the editor o/Ogony ok was the following exchange...
...The Deputies will be responsible to the voters and may be recalled by the voters...
...Suffice it to mention Aleksandr Galich, who at one time was chief of Radio Liberty's Cultural Section, as well as the authors Victor Nekrasov, Vladimir Voinovich and Sinyavsky...
...That's it...
...We need to provide information about the full spectrum of present developments...
...This is acutely needed now...
...Mihajlov: What do you think will change after the March 26 election of the Congress of Deputies...
...Wajda said discussing the subject would help strengthen, rather than destroy, the friendly ties between our two nations...
...The Czechoslovak intellectuals expressed their support for perestroïka, comparing it with the 1968 developments, and noted with regret that the official Soviet attitude toward the Prague Spring still remains negative...
...Idon'tthink there could be any question that these people will help Gorbachev's perestroïka more than specially appointed representatives...
...If three other people come out with a different slogan and then they all have a debate, fine...
...I very much liked it when Academician Andrei D. Sakharov, on his own, decided to make a trip to Azerbaijan and Armenia, where much became clear to him...
...Korotich: Well, it must be viewed within the context of that period...
...The plenum of the Central Committee will probably convene in the summer of 1989 to discuss the nationalities question...
...They are openly calling for repressions, and actually they want to ban all attempts at self-expression in general...
...It is not by chance that he was promoted by the most experienced apparatchik, Andrei Gromyko...
...It is hard for me to say what will happen as a result of the election...
...But now we have a normal leader who has himself introduced a law that would require a change of leadership every 10 years...
...He is probably looking for nationalist movements deliberately provoked in the republics...
...That's what was horrible...
...Mihajlov: You came here to cover the U.S...
...Last year a number of prominent Soviets even agreed to be interviewed for our broadcasts...
...democracy...
...A few years ago, there was practically a total ban on rock music, and rock musicians made tapes in all sorts of basements...
...If there is no food it is simply because it all goes to Russia and the Russians eat it...
...That would be the end of political quacks of every stripe, precisely because they lack any substance...
...I wouldn't even say that there is some sort of a nefarious scheme at work, since our editorial offices receive about 400 letters daily...
...If it concentrates on protecting itself from the influx of new forces it will simply perish like the mammoths...
...If thecook is properly educated, why not...
...Then the ban was lifted, and the artistic level of Soviet rock music rose significantly...
...It is also excellent that the Latvians who are concerned about pollution in their ports, are raising the issue now in their national parliament...
...I, for one, have insufficient or biased information about a lot of informal movements...
...What we are saying now is that Marx, Engels, Lenin and other great Marxist philosophers developed their ideas under concrete circumstances of history...
Vol. 72 • February 1989 • No. 4
