A Talk with Hungary's Imre Pozsgay
TOK?S, RUDOLF L.
ON THE EVE OF CHANGE ATalk with Hungary's Imre Pozsgay By Rudolf L. Tokés Balatonarács "THE PROPER SUBJECT of politicalfreedomisthecitizen, its framework is the nation, and its tool is...
...By contrast, in Hungary the regime has not collapsed...
...I do not know what will happen, although it is quite certain that the matter will be on the agenda...
...In any event, I am thinking of an open, unhindered system of representation of the people's interests...
...Pozsgay was brought up to the Central Committee staff in the early 1970s...
...The extended conversation below took place June 10, at the Pozsgays' modest summer home on the shores of Lake Balaton...
...In a recent essay he declared: "When we juxtapose socialism and values, we can embrace socialism only as an heir to the values of European development...
...Pozsgay: It would be difficult to say no...
...But they will be there when the real national elections are held...
...To facilitate the process of building a market economy, theState must retreat to the constitutional-administrative realm, and must institute a radically reformed management of its budget...
...Everything has to be rethought and fitted into a matrix of Rechtsstaat, of pluralism and political democracy...
...Although these comparisons hint at integrity, compassion and rhetorical skills, they fail to suggest the nature and intensity of his ideological commitment...
...In this sense, the role of the Secretary General is not unacceptable to me, but I have no personal ambitions to pursue that position...
...As I see it, this would be the worst possible response...
...New profit centers should be created for the reception of foreign capital...
...Since that time, national public opinion polls of Party members and nonmembers have ranked him as Hungary's most popular and trusted politician by a margin of several points...
...I believe that elections in Hungary should be fought m individual districts, where lists of candidates would be put up only by parties able to field a certain number of candidates and, in general, able to attract a meaningful number of votes...
...The oversight of foreign venture capital must be sheltered from bureaucratic interference...
...His luck has held thus far...
...In 1954 Pozsgay was sent to the Lenin Institute in Budapest, a preparatory institutionfor "fast track" young cadres...
...A bookish lad who did well in the classroom, he nevertheless was placed in a trade school and went on to an agricultural training school...
...But Hungary would seek out tough competitive environments abroad, so the result at home would be growth and efficiency, instead of decline...
...Do you believe a national list of candidates would survive at the ballot box in Hungary...
...I believe that the new political movement [Movement for a Democratic Hungary] in which I participate can define the issues honestly, without lies, and in so doing will gain the support of the people...
...This event seems to have become a kind of national catharsis...
...Much of the discussion here is a kind of testimony to our backwardness...
...As President of the Republic or as Secretary General of the Party, or ina combination of the two, where would you hope to lead Hungary in the 1990s...
...What about the sectarian and, to me, unacceptably intolerant elements who are also members of my Party...
...ThePozsgayled Movement, the core of a nascent Eurosocialist radical reform party, may become one of three successors to the ruling (Communist) Hungarian Socialist Workers'Party (HSWP) at its next, and possibly last, Congress in October...
...What will happen at the Party Congress if the reformers and similar people of good will prevail...
...Fifty-six-year-old Pozsgay is also a member oftheHSWP's new four-man Presidium...
...Political democracy may be brought about only from the soil of a civil society in which the citizen is sovereign and has the capacity to act on his own behalf...
...Now, without any further beating around the bush, the task and the responsibilities that befall the President of the Republic do appeal to me...
...Finally, what the West can do— though this is not an economic issue—is continue to pay attention to Hungary and accord publicity to the significance of the Hungarian experiment...
...I am sure this dispute within the Party will come out right...
...Should Pozsgay become the first Eurosocialist head of an East European State, luck will not be enough to stare down the Erich Honeckers, the Milos Jakeses and the Nicolae Ceausescus of the neighborhood...
...Ithinkthis would be acceptable to the opposition as well...
...Since we signed the Helsinki Final Act in 1975, we know the protection of human rights can never be considered the internal affair of a state...
...For all sober political forces, including the opposition, have rejected that course...
...To prepare the country for the influx of foreign capital our own economic structures need to be revamped into a mixed economy with private property, cooperative property and Stateowned property enjoying equal standing...
...An admirer has likened Pozsgay to an utterly decent plain-spoken Protestant minister...
...Yet few seem to know him outside Hungary...
...How do you see your role in terms of contributing to the realization of Hungary's democratic transformation...
...Rudolf L. Tokés, professor of political science at the University of Connecticut and a previous NL contributor, is writing a book on economic reform and social change in Hungary...
...Whether as the head of a new grouping or of a revamped HSWP, Pozsgay appears destined to be a decisive figure in Hungarian affairs in the coming years...
...Pozsgay: Undoubtedly, the events in Zuglo are evidence of passivity...
...This must not simply be left to chance...
...If they fail and another kind of center becomes dominant, then the Party will have severed itself from the Hungarian people and their society...
...The beautiful 200-year-old peasant house was close to crumbling and going begging, Pozsgay takes pains to stress, when he and his wife, who teaches history and literature at a pedagogical institute in Budapest, decided to take on the challenge of restoring it...
...I am sure they did not think it was important to bother to vote at this time...
...What can be done "to bring Hungary closer to Europe," as you once put it...
...But when it comes to the voting, their behavior will be entirely different...
...Quite naturally, discussion will continue...
...If these changes are registered in the form of a new consensus, the process of transition will be peaceful...
...It was the Church, for reasons of its own, that accommodated the poorly working government and allowed it to remain in power, both at present and in the foreseeable future...
...I did not misspeak: It is not aid or handouts, it is assistance that I have in mind...
...Tokés: We have been witnessing the unfolding of historic events in China and Poland that will inevitably have an influence on the political life of Hungary...
...Hungary is acting in a unique, as well as in a more mature, or advanced, fashion...
...Pozsgay: At least the "losers" could be compensated for their losses...
...I think and I hope that June 16 will mark the end of an era...
...They do not dare to go to the people and are most reluctant to leave the Party...
...Many misunderstood the implications of the Polish round-table negotiations...
...Well, those people are accountable for the record of an era, for its institutions and the way the system has functioned...
...What matters is not that the negotiations were held, but their outcome...
...They should be allowed to form a party of their own, or somehow to organize themselves...
...Regression to the earlier model is without realistic social support in Hungary today, and I hope that those who might try to turn us back will be deprived of external support for such an effort...
...People still do not believe that a threshold has been crossed...
...But let me raise a related question: About 10 days ago, the people of Budapest's 14th district voted on the recall of conservative Parliamentary deputy Sandor Dauda...
...In addition, you are a member of the Politburo of the currently ruling political party, and you are the leader of a new national movement for political renewal...
...For all of his affability, Pozsgay is a tough pragmatist—a shrewd compromiser and a gutsy infighter who has put his career on the line a half dozen times over the last three years...
...deputy, then Minister of Culture and Education...
...The West should be on its guard, so that the forces of regression in Hungary do not receive support from the "other direction...
...Pozsgay: It is indeed an event of cathartic magnitude...
...People rarely bother to participate in by-elections...
...The significance of the day lies not onlyin the reburial of ImreNagy and his fellow victims, and in its being a kind of national gesture of penance, though these are extremely important...
...I think the necessary regulations can be devised...
...How much of Janos Kadar's legacy is still useful for the future...
...Capital allocations by the State ought to be informed by realities, rather than by bureaucratic decisions...
...There is a silent majority that has not yet responded to the new challenges...
...They will not be able to reach the Hungarian people, except perhaps with a message of social demagoguery, and that is the most appalling prospect...
...lam convinced that the events in China have come about precisely because its political structures have long resisted the requirements of the economy...
...The old one cannot be reformed...
...What kinds of economic modernization programs might be feasible...
...He was the first top Party official to establish a dialogue with the opposition, to call the "events of 1956" a popular uprising, and to promote the idea of a Party split—if that is what is necessary to get rid of Stalinist deadwood...
...But in the West people tend to view politicians mainly in the context of specific positions and power relationships...
...This is how I understand the closing of the book on a historic period...
...Pozsgay: I do not believe in national lists...
...Central Committee member, then Secretary General of the Patriotic People's Front...
...The Poles would have been much wiser to put their faith in the political persuasiveness of individual personalities...
...He joined the Communist Party at the age of 17...
...Others see him as a reincarnation of a 19th-century county appeals judge...
...To protect those who venture into Hungary, the State must provide guaranteed opportunities for the withdrawal of investments at any time, as well as for the repatriation of profits in convertible currency...
...That individual, if he has an integrative personality and if he has a lifelong record of personal decency, could do a great deal for the creation of the stability and progress that Hungary greatly needs today...
...Tokés: How do you view the significance of the reburial of Imre Nagy and his associates...
...The two have never met, but one has the feeling that they have enough in common to settle their differences at the negotiating table, rather than at the barricades...
...For that reason, the forces of reform must seek out points of contact with the society...
...It will be cathartic mainly for those who for a long time have resisted the idea, but now are accepting the necessity of legally and politically rehabilitating Imre Nagy...
...Even more, the significance lies in the entire country pledging—and let us hope for the last time—that in the future it will never again countenance murder for political reasons...
...Here all the existing political parties are already sitting at the negotiating table to write a new constitution and to make preparations for a system of genuine political representation...
...But I am confident that investors will find their involvement in Hungary profitable, even in the very short run...
...At this time, as a member of the Cabinet, you are personally responsible for dealing with the print and electronic media, for the dialogue with the alternative organizations, for relations with the trade unions, and in general serve as the official liaison with the non-Party people of Hungary...
...Pozsgay: However honored I am by those roles, I am mindful mainly of the burdens of responsibility...
...However, the Hungarian Socialist Workers Party can show that it has harbored a reform wing without interruption since 1953...
...In the case of the transition, rationality and expertise must prevail...
...Tökes: So you believe the sunshine of openness and publicity will melt away and neutralize the fundamentalist forces...
...An aspect of this process would be the imposition of sensible constraints on Hungary's financial life through the convertible forint...
...It should be made clear as to who in the Party will be unacceptable and who will be acceptable to the Hungarian people...
...What does it all mean to the Hungarian people...
...Even though the majority of those who did vote were in favor of Dauda's recall, the effort failed for the want of the minimal 50 per centplus participation of the eligible voters...
...As I seeit, a careerist is a person who, as a product of a system that does not select personnel on the basis of ability, agrees to serve in positions well beyond his capabilities...
...Pozsgay: Let me begin by saying that what has transpired in China ought to be seen as handwriting on the wall, as a kind of fatal warning for Hungary...
...they still do not believe that they can become active politically without any risk...
...As far as goals are concerned, the most important one is a genuine agreement among the various political forces that would yield cooperation with respect to a few basic issues...
...The Hungarian people are not stupid and they will see what is at stake...
...Tökes: All this sounds pretty persuasive in terms of strategic thinking...
...Many are still debating October 1917, or the French Revolution 200 years after the fact...
...On June 24 he was named the Party's nominee for the office of President of the Republic, a position that is supposed to be established in early 1990...
...There must be tremendous structural changes to make up for years of great neglect...
...With that kind of pressure could you, as a responsible politician, say "no" to such a call...
...Born in a small Transdanubian village, the son of a tailor who died when he was 5, young Imre was raised by his mother and grandfather...
...The only remedy is openness and wide publicity to show the people who the purveyors really are, and their responsibility for the social ills we are struggling with today...
...That is, we could create business opportunities for foreign capital to provide the needed resources, technology and managerial know-how for a market economy in Hungary...
...In Poland—perhaps because of geopolitical considerations—the real power at the negotiating table, the Catholic Church, chose to remain in the background while Solidarity followed its guidance...
...In this connection, the most astonishing thing is that the membership of the new and reborn non-Communist parties that have surfaced over the past six months is less than 50,000...
...On the other hand, in a related context, I clearly see that with a totally ruined and disheveled Party it is not possible to take on the Presidency...
...ON THE EVE OF CHANGE ATalk with Hungary's Imre Pozsgay By Rudolf L. Tokés Balatonarács "THE PROPER SUBJECT of politicalfreedomisthecitizen, its framework is the nation, and its tool is the State, " wrote Imre Pozsgay in the March 15,1989 inaugural manifesto of the Movement for a Democratic Hungary...
...The lesson of China for Hungary can only be a more determined, more resolute commitment to the continuation of our reforms and to making them irreversible...
...Do you have a realistic program from which everybody would benefit and no one would lose...
...The State will have to exercise extreme self-restraint with respect to the direct guidance of the economy...
...The essence of the Polish round-table discussions was the restoration of the opposition and of Solidarity—its most important component—to the status of legitimate participants in the political process...
...I believe that this conviction and program will not be influenced by the events in nearby Poland...
...This will place burdens on the society...
...This means that, notwithstanding the Polish experience, the path to follow in Hungary should and must be that of free elections...
...On all other questions where one can entertain the opposition's views within the framework of constitutional order, there can be debate...
...Therefore, the membership need not be ashamed of the Party's record...
...The Party can also demonstrate that it has made good use of its limited opportunities to combat Stalinism...
...I am familiar with electoral voting habits in Hungary...
...That includes the application of rational management procedures to the utilization of its own budgetary resources...
...Tokés: As a temporary stopgap measure, could one accept a high Party responsibility together with the constitutional responsibility of President of the Republic...
...I consider the forthcoming Congress early this fall as the last opportunity for the Party to make a choice between two alternatives...
...That, of course, does not mean we would be able to join the European Economic Community in the near future...
...T6kés: Isn'tthere a danger of repeating what happened to those on the national list in Poland...
...I attach great importance to Hungary's economic integration withEurope...
...As part of the list they were rejected by the voters...
...All this could create a domestic market and a competitive production-oriented environment that will be effective in foreign markets as well...
...The system's defense mechanisms for the preservation of political power have been much stronger than its capabilities for self-renewal...
...I say that because if our sense of justice had been stronger and our political mechanisms had been sturdier, we could have put this matter behind us a long time ago in accordance with normal traditions of humanity and compassion...
...Tökes: For the last 20 years you have been on record and have been active in the political arena in a manner that has become fashionable in the Communist world only in the last two or three years...
...I suspect that some of those on the national list would have won in indi vidual contests...
...It is severely shaken, public confidence in the government has declined and its prestige has diminished to a great extent...
...That country is in a different phase of development...
...I repeat: The program will not work without external assistance, because in the last 40 years we have created a capital- and resource-starved national economy, instead of generating new wealth...
...It is a fair format...
...Therefore, this Party must be led toward a new kind of identity—one that accepts and is consonant with the ground rules of a multiparty system...
...Tökes: Speaking of the future, how do you envisage your role in the coming months...
...Some say that we must tighten our ranks, abase ourselves and run for co ver...
...Much will depend on how Mikhail S. Gorbachev perceives Pozsgay's brand ofsocialism...
...Their significance should not be overestimated, though...
...The Chinese leaders can envision only one kind of stability—one that is linked to stagnation...
...But without external assistance the kind of economic program I have in mind cannot be realized...
...Tokés: As I see it, the HSWP may be in the process of reorganization and at the next Party Congress, in the name of democratization, a different kind of socialism may emerge...
...So what is the answer...
...My own initial encounter with Imre Pozsgay occuredin 1988, when a friend introduced me to him in Budapest, and we subsequently talked briefly at two or three international conferences...
...As it happened, less than 50 per cent of the eligible voters showed up at the ballot box...
...In May 1988 he was elected to the Politburo and appointed Minister of State...
...The reformers have to understand that while questions of intraparty balance of power are proper subjects of debate, their outcome must never affect the relationship between the Party and the people...
...Still, social demagoguery is to be expected...
...I would like to say something, however, that is unusual for a politician in an East Central European regime where it is not acceptable to articulate one's personal political ambitions lest one be accused of careerism...
...Then the State, with the help of new social welfare policies, will beableto compensate for the losses sustained by social groups that had fallen victim to the laws of the market economy...
...These are three areas of activity, three opportunities, and your views as to what is feasible and desirable will be of great importance in the months ahead...
...There is a change toward a new political model taking place in Hungary...
...How would you mobilize a passive" fedup- with-politics" average citizen on behalf of a good cause...
...Sixteen years before anyone heard o/glasnost or perestroika, in his (still unpublished) 1969 doctoral dissertation on "Socialist Democracy, "he supported the objectives of the Prague Spring, affirmed Rosa Luxemburg's critique of the Russian Revolution, and called for "openness, " "political reforms" and "democratization...
...It seems that they have the power but lack the sobriety to adapt the changes from below...
...From there his career took off: deputy editor of the Party's theoretical monthly, Tavsadalmi Szemle...
...The partnership of the two would seek out opportunities for financial investment and market strategies in Hungary...
...After earning a diploma in history and philosophy he entered the rural apparat as a "cultural specialist...
...Pozsgay: If the reformers and the people of good will are successful, there will be a party center that is one with the people...
...There appears to be a strong likelihood that the present crisis-ridden, yet democracyprone, HSWP will elect a new leadership and will find you the most appropriate person for the position of Secretary General...
...Should it be adopted, the HSWP willhaveashareof power—not by the mercy of the opposition, but by virtue of its electoral strength at the ballot box...
...Pozsgay: That cannot be precluded, though it is not my personal wish...
...That is, we have to implement significant organizational changes at the next Party Congress, to complete the process of the Party's own democratization, to renew its leadership, and to draft a new program that will bring the Party closer to the nation...
...As a consequence, I must draw the appropriate conclusions as far as my own party is concerned...
...As you see it, what are the most important positive and negative " lessons" of these developments for your country...
Vol. 72 • June 1989 • No. 10
