A Talk with Guatemala's Vinicio Cerezo Arevalo

...The alternative is a victory by the far Right...

...Cerezo: To begin with, we would not attempt to do away with the guerrillas overnight...

...Despite that announcement they have no real economic development strategy...

...You cannot justify this kind of killing with a claim that the individual was "subversive...

...QWhile you now criticize many aspects of Rios Montt's performance, in 1974 he was your party's candidate for President...

...Already on two occasions—1974 and 1982—we have won presidential elections...

...Other party leaders and activists have also been threatened...

...In Guatemala there is a saying, "The people are to the guerrillas what water is to fish...

...I don't feel Rios Montt has the intention of implementing real reforms...

...Q: Is there anything for which you would give Rios Montt credit...

...Cerezo: To us, El Salvador is the primary example of the failure of a military solution...

...If their opponents split their vote, this percentage could conceivably grow, especially if the Right can form a coalition...

...Rios Montt, a born-again Christian inclined to quoting the Bible, was believed to be the one man who could effectively manage the fight against Leftist rebels and simultaneously limit human rights abuses without losing the confidence of the military...

...Along with the elimination of the secret tribunals, we need the establishment and enforcement of laws that guarantee freedom for political activity and trade union organizing...

...If the government would begin to rectify economic inequities and permit people to organize politically, the motivations for violent confrontation with the Army would be diminished and the Army could then exercise its security functions without the need for repression...

...Cerezo: In some cases it cannot be conclusively determined who is responsible, but in the majority of cases witnesses say they were committed by members of the Armed Forces...

...I talked with him during a visit he made to Washington a week ago...

...But at the same time the Reagan Ad4 The New Leader ministration is effecting a rapprochement with the Guatemalan government, international human rights organizations are charging that under Rios Montt the military is systematically slaughtering Indians and campesinos in remote rural villages...

...The triumph of the Nicaraguan revolution and the problems we are witnessing today in El Salvador and Guatemala indicate that it is the people who play the final and most crucial role...

...I also feel that to some extent Rios Montt's decision reflected a certain personal religious insolence...

...Yet the result was the opposite...

...That is, he and his advisers, who are fanatical adherents of a Protestant sect, saw the executions as a means of undermining the Pope's impact...

...Do you agree...

...Frankly, I am panic-stricken [about the future fate of the Indians...

...Under Rios Montt the number of politically-motivated assassinations has diminished and so has the intensity of the persecution of the political opposition...

...There can be no pacification without a political opening, nor can there be a political opening without economic growth...

...It is impossible to wave a magic wand and eliminate both the mentality of violence and the physical existence of 5,000 armed men who are convinced they are victims of social injustice and who, besides, can't simply return to civilian life...

...He will jump to the defense of the military whenever he feels its interests are adversely affected...

...ONE YEAR OF RIOS MONTT A Talk with Guatemala's Vinicio Cerezo -Axcvcilo byl|ndadrucker EFRAIN RIOS MONTT When Guatemala's General Efrain Rios Montt stepped out of retirement on March 23,1982 to lead a successful coup orchestrated by young Army officers, he was widely hailed as a welcome relief from the corrupt, internationally discredited regime of General Romeo Lucas Garcia...

...It is evident the government knows this perfectly well, and that its explanations are unsatisfactory and ridiculous...

...Such a victory would be a tragedy for Guatemala...

...Nevertheless, historically we have managed to beat the Right when we have maintained unity ourselves with the other sectors of the [democratic] opposition...

...Ambassador Frederick Chapin...

...Like the army, Rios Montt sees the solution to Guatemala's problems in a linear, rather than a comprehensive way...

...Abroad, few governments have stirred more controversy...

...Thus, after a several year suspension due to the flagrant human rights violations of the Lucas regime, Washington has decided to resume military aid to Guatemala ($10 million), to approve the commercial sale of helicopter parts to the country's military, and to request an additional $71 million in economic aid over the next two years...

...The justification for dictatorships is the prevention of Communism...

...Cerezo: Yes, ultimately Rios Montt did a great favor for the Catholic Church in Guatemala...

...The American government is clearly in the right...

...The preoccupation of both parties to the conflict with the Indians has unwittingly converted them into the principal actors of the drama, and they may well be the principal victims of the drama...

...In this first year of the Rios Montt regime we've only lost seven people...

...He's taken away some of the political power they have traditionally enjoyed and also reduced their military capacity by confiscating many of their arms...

...I've had to take my wife and children out of the country...

...If we can gradually win over the people, the guerrillas will lose their capacity to affect the system...

...In discussing the problems of Latin America and the Third World, it is common to refer to private enterprise, the Army, elites...

...If a Center-Left party like the Christian Democrats came to power, how would you handle the guerrillas...

...For if the guerrillas do not triumph, and a democratic centrist government that will respect their rights does not assume power either, the Indians will be condemned to genocide...

...His decision succeeded in uniting all Guatemalan Catholics in a massive outpouring of support which, more than support for Catholicism, was a demonstration in favor of peace and against the violent and repressive methods employed in Guatemala up to this very moment...

...Embassy in Guatemala, now quietly pressuring Rios to speed up the election process, is still convinced of his intention to turn over power to civilians...

...it should be a policy that allows the population to share in the benefits of the wealth it creates...

...Another time they tried to shoot me in front of party headquarters, and in the crossfire three people died and five were injured...

...Agency for International Development was justified because the anthropologist was a "subversive...

...In Guatemala, although the guerrillas haveasphereof influence, they have not yet achieved the capacity to completely control a specific territorial area, as they have in El Salvador...

...He has also imprisoned a number of their leaders forconspiringtooverthrowhim...

...Qlf there are free presidential elections in 1984 or'85—such as Rios Montt has pledged—who will win...

...But while the violence is less generalized now, unfortunately it has been concentrated against the Indian communities, where massacres are still taking place...

...Cerezo: The same condition should apply...

...Linear in the sense that first the problem of "pacification" [eliminating guerrillas] has to be addressed, and only then can the problem of economic growth, and finally of political opening, be resolved...

...Q: Should the U.S...

...I do not think the U.S...

...should simply decide to back a given government...

...It seems to me that Rios Montt is still acting as if he were a member of the Army...

...Cerezo: He has the far Right [responsible for many death squad killings during the Lucas period] under better control than his predecessor...

...They say his effort to wipe out Leftist rebels has committed Rios to a strategy of "total war" in the countryside, where soldiers are confiscating food, razing entire villages and permitting no one the right to remain neutral...

...Cerezo: Not until a clear process of democratization is in evidence...

...Q: Did Rios Montt's action backfire...

...A number of those political leaders who had to leave the country [when Lucas was in power] have been able to return...

...Cerezo: In recent months the Rios Montt government has improved the situation we lived under during the previous regime in some specific ways...

...El Salvador is the proof...

...If you went to the rural areas where the guerrillas and the Army are engaged in combat, you would get an entirely different picture...

...Q: Given your role as a leader of the opposition, how have you managed to stay alive...

...I strongly disagree with those who maintain, for example, that the present government is worse than was the government of Lucas Garcia...

...Q: Yet both of those victories at the polls were nullified by coups or fraud...

...Since we have determined that we will no longer accept the game, but will force the emergence of a civilian government, the Army must make a choice—total war or the partial loss of power through elections...

...Instead, we would change the Army's strategy of aggressive attack, whose aim is the rapid elimination of theguerrillas, toadefensiveone...

...Although he promised a return to civilian rule and offered a timetable for elections, he dismissed his two junta partners, suspended the Constitution, and last July proclaimed a sweeping state-of-siege that was only partially lifted on the first anniversary of his takeover...

...Far Right parties have traditionally received at least 20-25 per cent of the vote in Guatemala...

...The trouble now is that the Army begins by defining security as security for a system of exaggerated concentration of political power in the hands of the military...

...Embassy in Guatemala told me that since the General came to power "a surprising sense of normalcy has returned...

...Once he assumed office, his behavior became enigmatic...

...He knows the Army is his power base and he is following a strategy it has set down...

...We thought he would play a transitional role, laying the foundations of a democratic structure that would enable Guatemalans to vote in free elections, without maintaining such a harsh stance toward political movements and toward the population in general...

...So the country is living two different realities at once...

...Cerezo: I think Rios Montt's act was deliberate—specifically designed to demonstrate that he would not allow himself to be pressured or the conduct of the war to be influenced by any sector, including the Catholic Church...

...Apparently it was this killing that prompted the temporary recall of U.S...

...There the Army continues to confront the guerrillas with the same repressive mentality as before, and this continues to produce deaths among the populations whose loyalty is questioned...

...The decision of the Army is therefore going to be either to fight until the death to preserve the political power it now enjoys, or to relinquish part of its power in order to assure its continued existence...

...Finally, it is impossible to explain the actions of the government of Guatemala if one doesn't take for granted the fact that there is a certain insensitivity, a lack of understanding, and further, a disregard for what the rest of world thinks...

...It invited us to participate in its governments, to reach accords...

...Which of these two parties will emerge victorious will depend on their ability to form alliances and coalitions...

...Conferring with the General in Honduras in early December, President Reagan told him that his government had received a "bum rap" in the international media...

...Q: What credence do you give to fears that Guatemala's indigenous populations and its rich Indian culture may perish in the conflict...

...Q: The State Department maintains that Rios Montt is gradually, but in good faith, moving toward a democratization...

...in November a spokesman fortheU.S...

...By the time of Rios Montt's farewell speech to the Pope, you could see that he was trying to explain himself, having at last realized that he had committed a mistake...

...Could you explain this apparent contradiction...

...the population is not taken into account...

...The most important lesson to be learned from Nicaragua is that no government, no matter how strong its Army, can survive if the mass of the population opposes its rule...

...What gives you hope things will be different next time...

...Cerezo: The guerrillas have placed a high priority on the politicization of the Indians...

...This is going to be a historic decision that will depend both on the attitude of foreign governments and the stance taken by domestic politicians, which has changed dramatically from what it was a few years ago...

...The first step is a dialogue, next negotiations, then an agreement...

...Cerezo: I think they've had a temporary success in the policy of fusiles, but not in the policy of frijoles...

...I live in a constant state of caution, of preparation against such attacks...

...The controversy over the executions has stimulated a tremendous debate within the Guatemalan government—even within the military itself—over whether or not the repressive methods now used to combat the guerrilla insurgency are in fact justified...

...This is a permanent threat against political leaders that must disappear...

...But because movements of the extreme Left are well-suited to functioning underground, those most severely damaged by a dictatorship are the democratic movements, for they do not have the capacity or intellectual rationale to flourish clandestinely...

...Q: Who is responsible for most of the human rights violations now occurring in Guatemala...

...In the past the Army has been able to manipulate the situation so that political parties like ours were forced to play their game...

...The Christian Democrats now have 11 widows, that is wives of men who died while defending the activities of the party...

...resume military aid to Guatemala...

...One month the Army affirms it has defeated the guerrillas, six months later it is the guerrillas who are winning the war...

...Q: What about economic aid...

...If the Army doesn't respect the results of the next election, the possibility of a nonviolent solution will no longer exist, and the country will inevitably find itself heading toward polarization and war...

...If you went to Guatemala today, you would see that in the capital and some other areas of the country the atmosphere is in fact much more normal...

...This has made it especially dangerous for the Indians themselves...

...rather, this will assure their emergence, in the short or long run...

...Cerezo: My experience is that in Guatemala we need concrete proofs— not simply government proclamations...

...A third time they machine-gunned my house, but only damaged property...

...Cerezo: At the time we were under the impression that Rios Montt, because of his religiosity, was different from other military men...

...Cerezo: This incident is sure to have a large impact onU.S.-Guatemalan relations...

...Similarly, he has preached the Lord's word to the nation in televised fireside chats whose aura of moral authority has won him popular support, yet this month he startled the nation's Catholics by executing six men in defiance of a papal plea for clemency only 72 hours before the Pope arrived in Guatemala City...

...This is his big mistake...

...At any moment any political leader can be jailed on the accusation of "subversive activity," whether or not that is the case...

...Q: What lessons are to be learned from both the Salvadoran and Nicara-guan experiences...

...Though Rios Montt has promised he will promulgate laws to allow political parties to function openly, we'll have to wait to see how these work in practice...

...Q: Hasn't Rios Montt said his policies emphasize frijoles (beans) as much as fusiles (bullets...

...Meanwhile the war continues and the country destroys itself...

...Our approach to the guerrilla problem would be to seek a broadening of the political spectrum...

...Cerezo: It will be a close contest between two parties, the so-called Movement of National Liberation [of the extreme Right] and the Christian Democrats...

...What follows are the observations of Vinicio Cerezo Arevalo, leader of the Christian Democratic Party, on the current situation in Guatemala...

...Q: A few weeks ago Rios Montt infuriated some visiting Congressmen by contending that the murder of an anthropologist working for the U.S...

...The guerrilla movements have emerged out of a socioeconomic and political situation that has been evolving over many years...

...Q: How do you account for Rios Montt's intransigence in ordering the execution of six suspected subversives after the Vatican specifically asked for clemency, and the Pope was scheduled to arrive in Guatemala City in only 72 hours...

...Just as the Left is concerned with the significance of the Indians to their cause, so are the others—those who want to prevent the Indians from becoming politicized...

...More-over this policy of frijoles should imply something more than giving people food and satisfying some basic necessities...

...He's taken a few measures against corruption in the civilian sector of the government, but I doubt he will advance much beyond that...

...We cannot begin to even think of engaging in political activity without a rule of law to protect us...

...What Rios Montt and the Army fail to understand is that there are multiple and interrelated problems which must be solved simultaneously...

...It is evident that members of the Armed Forces were responsible [for the assassination...

...Cerezo: It's not a question of "hope...

...Finally, we would initiate a dialogue with guerrilla groups on their return to organized society and the possibility of their participation not only in elections but in the mechanisms of power at some point in the future...

...If the Guatemalan Army continues making the same mistakes that were made in El Salvador, the guerrillas will eventually gain control of specific areas unless there is a political opening that will cause them to lose territorial influence...

...Initially, I think the government was attempting to use the executions to discourage the Pope from visiting Guatemala, or at least to show that it would not allow its policies to be affected by the Pope's presence...

...The Reagan Administration views Rios Montt as a sincere reformer who has cleaned up much of the death squad violence and taken steps to impose a code of conduct on the Guatemalan Army...

...It is evident that to prevent such incidents from recurring in the future, the government must set a precedent by bringing those responsible to justice...

...Those who do not aid the government by forming civil defense patrols or by providing information on the whereabouts of guerrillas may not be allowed to live," declared the Americas Watch Committee in a recently released report that claimed the indiscriminate murder of civilians "of any village or farm perceived by the Army as possibly supportive of guerrilla insurgents or which otherwise resists Army directives...

...But we've been forced to admit that, yes, we did makea mistake and that Rios Montt is a man basically formed by the Army...

...QThe Reagan Adminis-+ tration defends the Rios ^ Montt record as an improvement in respect for human rights...

...But I think it's only a matter of time...

...In one instance a bomb intended for me exploded nearby, killing a person...

...As for me, it must be good luck that has kept me alive...

...Q: You seem to be saying that most abuses of the Rios Montt government stem from overzealousness in the fight against the guerrillas...

...If we can reach an agreement with liberal and social democratic groups, we could win...

...Cerezo: I've been threatened many times throughout the years, and there have been at least three actual attempts on my life...

...Except when it comes to purely humanitarian aid, such as for refugees...

...We would develop a plan to pluralize the political arena and at the same time would embark on a program of social and economic reforms...

...With a political death toll that sometimes topped 500 per month, the Lucas Garcia government had been unusually barbarous even by Central American standards...

...As for Nicaragua, the first lesson that has to be learned is that giving assistance to dictators is not the way to prevent the emergence of extreme Leftist governments...

...The answer is that several years ago we came to realize that violence would inevitably lead to the internationalization of the conflict, and the internationalization of the conflict to the destruction of Central America is not a solution...

...And the U.S...

...In one-and-a-half years of the Lucas government we Christian Democrats lost more than 200 of our political activists, and several of our leaders received death threats...

...it should strictly condition its economic aid on the advance of a democratization process...

...I am frequently asked why we Christian Democrats, since we are often attacked and murdered, don't join in the war...