A Talk with Ambassador McHenry
SAMUELS, GERTRUDE
THE VIEW FROM THE UN A Talk with Ambassador IMtcHcnry bygertrudesamuels United Nations Donald F. McHenry was not widely known outside diplomatic circles when President Carter named him United...
...It doesn't surprise me at all...
...Ambassador, in succeeding Andrew Young you were following a rather strong personality...
...McHenry: I do know that we're engaged in autonomy talks, which are called for in the Camp David accords...
...The U.S...
...There's no question but that there is tension between the United States and the Soviet Union...
...Neither is it the dastardly organization, the "talk shop" on the East River...
...Mine is quite different...
...The issue with regard to Afghanistan is a question of sovereignty, of territorial integrity...
...We have spent 204 years working toward them...
...He is the author of Micronesia: Trust Betrayed, a work that comes down hard on the United States as an "Administering Authority" in the Pacific...
...I can't think of any issue on which new countries would be more jealous...
...Occasionally his grace of manner gives way to professorial rhetorical flights, and to abruptly turning aside unwelcome questions...
...It's difficult to deal with today's issues in an organization that is multilateral, where there are so many different views...
...Ambassador, you have said many times that the Israeli settlements on the West Bank are "against international law...
...Samuels: And what do you think the chances of success are there...
...How would you characterize it...
...And I don't know anyone yet who has been able to show us a way of resolving the situation, given the incomplete revolution...
...Samuels: On the Camp David accords, which the PLO opposes, do you feel there is any prospect of that peace between Israel and Egypt being accepted by the UN...
...Samuels: What was that ideal...
...It was an ideal that was impossible to achieve immediately...
...McHenry: Most countries...
...I can deal with facts...
...The UN doesn't seem to be the place to get things done...
...Now, I think the second problem Americans have with regard to the UN is, in a sense, that we don't like to be on the losing end of votes...
...He's a much more flamboyant public Gertrude Samuels reports regularly on the United Nations for this magazine...
...It's that section on human rights...
...I'm just raising questions...
...or the possibility of a reaction to the reaction in Iran...
...It had nothing to do with what really the whole resolution was about, which was settlements...
...To many Americans it seems almost impossible to bring an issue before the UN without having that majority gang up on the United States...
...He explicitly said it was with regard to the references to Jerusalem...
...I don't think too many people are aware of that...
...And I find it easier to talk to small groups, to engage in a dialogue, than to large groups...
...Samuels: On my two-part question: Were you yourself in favor of that resolution [Security Council Resolution 465] when you voted Yes, condemning Israel...
...is not anti-Israel...
...McHenry: The perception the American people have of the UN is, in my judgment, partly flawed...
...And we have a certain snobbish attitude toward the new members: They don't know what they're talking about, they are small, they are new...
...McHenry: We take exception to the provision under which they speak because there are other provisions of the Charter that allow interested groups to speak—without taking on the attributes of a state, or a member...
...The ideal should not be lost...
...It is also that section on economic and social affairs...
...McHenry: Obviously, there was an early tendency—maybe there still is some—to compare our styles...
...The UN mission to Iran has failed...
...In my judgment, though, we have to recognize that the problems which will face the world in the next decade or score of years will be problems in the Third World...
...One has to look at the UN very realistically, as an institution that is growing...
...Or at least, they don't want Mr...
...Ambassador, as you know better than anyone, the United Nations today, with its 152 member states, is dominated by the Third World, nonaligned and Communist countries...
...And it's that part which is, by far, the most controversial...
...I would say Mr...
...The public ought to be given the information it needs in order to make judgments on this...
...Samuels: Mr...
...And I'm not overly concerned about the fact that the UN reflects the world in which we live...
...The resolution spoke of Israel's policy of settlements...
...Now, we could be wrong...
...I think our experience, certainly in the last three years, has been that we have a great deal in common with much of the UN membership...
...The UN is not the be-all and end-all that people thought it was after the Second World War...
...And they are all growing institutions...
...and that if we can work with those countries, respect their views—not try to engage in a shouting match—we can use this organization effectively for the goals for which it was set...
...It was not an anti-Israel vote...
...I don't think that ought to be a concentration...
...Now with regard to my personal views, I never get into those...
...McHenry: The ideal of the goals of the Charter...
...I don't know you well enough...
...The Common Market is less than 25 years old...
...and the fact is that the UN has run into some criticism in this country because of a basic and fundamental difference with regard to the Middle East...
...The UN has its growing pains...
...McHenry joined the State Department in 1963...
...The other day, I interviewed him in his 11th-floor office...
...Samuels: Mr...
...McHenry: Meaning that if you don't solve problems, and if people reach the point where they believe the institutions of moderation either are not helping them or are on the side of oppressing them, they then turn to more radical solutions...
...I've been in foreign policy all of my professional life...
...McHenry: Could be regional...
...Ambassador, could we stay for the moment with those areas of great importance to American interests that you have mentioned: Iran and the hostages there, the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan...
...And the Third World...
...We have not achieved them all...
...McHenry: I think there's no question but that the treaty between Israel and Egypt is a question to be resolved between Israel and Egypt...
...McHenry: The only obstacles I've had, of course, have been the tremendous number of questions we've had to face in this period of time, the rapidity with which we've had to face them...
...Alignment with the Soviet Union...
...THE VIEW FROM THE UN A Talk with Ambassador IMtcHcnry bygertrudesamuels United Nations Donald F. McHenry was not widely known outside diplomatic circles when President Carter named him United States Ambassador to the United Nations last August, following the resignation of Andrew Young...
...McHenry: No, I'm a realistic defender of the United Nations...
...He wants to get rid of the hostage problem...
...This is a treaty between two sovereign countries...
...If I find anything, I find a concern among new members that we don't live up to their ideal of what America is...
...No one has ever heard me express my personal views...
...He didn't disavow what you say he disavowed...
...And it's in that part where the question of Jordan or the Palestinians arises...
...It unfortunately was made up of 12 or 13 people, all of whom wanted to be President...
...Samuels: Are you suggesting, sir, that our hostages may be imprisoned there for months, years to come...
...Ghotbzadeh [Foreign Minister Sadegh Ghotbzadeh], and they aren't the power in Iran...
...But if you look at the map of the world today, you will find basically local problems...
...whether it's Liberia and the change that took place there...
...It is not surprising that they would line up with the United States in criticism of the Soviet Union on Afghanistan...
...The competition for authority there hasn't been decided...
...One reason for this is the ideal that we built up at the end of the Second World War...
...He went on to reiterate the policy with regard to the settlements...
...And secondly, how has the disavowal affected your role in the UN, because many do see the President's statement in the following days as a disavowal...
...And it is a fact that many Americans were left with the impression that although the President disavowed the March 1 resolution within 24 hours— that nevertheless you had supported it, you had recommended it...
...The only thing that's done when a treaty is reached between two countries is to deposit it across the street [in the UN...
...Samuels: You're a staunch defender of the United Nations, are you not...
...McHenry: No, I don't think so...
...Now, that's what we have to do...
...McHenry: Revolutions...
...McHenry: Oh, I've always avoided contrasts...
...Now, it is in that part where the difficulty arises...
...I haven't myself paid much attention to it...
...Bani-Sadr's competition is among the religious elements, who see the hostages, I would guess, as a unifying factor...
...We've taken exception to the particular provision under which the PLO speaks...
...McHenry: Well, first, the resolution did not condemn Israel...
...The Revolutionary Council was in basically the same boat...
...We're in a period of the need to resolve local problems...
...Bani-Sadr [President Abolhassan Bani-Sadr of Iran] and Mr...
...McHenry: I don't know what we've said on the Palestinian state...
...They are not things you achieve instantly...
...Parade magazine expressed "surprise" that in the vote on Afghanistan, the Third World countries voted with the United States...
...With problems...
...You have said that President Carter's disavowal of the March 1 U.S...
...Those provisions are cited over and over again...
...Former Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Eugene Rostow, as you know, has denied that the Geneva Conventions apply to the West Bank...
...They are things you work toward...
...Samuels: Would you clarify "more radical solutions...
...I cite that because it gives some indication of what forms our perspective in terms of the UN...
...I find them pro-American...
...Samuels: Sir, what about the United States' standing in the world as a result of the failed rescue mission in Iran, the situation in Afghanistan...
...So I have a two-part question...
...Samuels: Any other obstacles...
...That brings me back to the contrast between your style and your predecessor's...
...And there are a number of other countries which are not anti-Israel...
...would have abstained on that portion of the resoution relating to Jerusalem...
...Samuels: Why do you take exception...
...McHenry: I wouldn't say that it's controversial...
...What we are going to have to do between the three of us—Israel, Egypt and the United States—is to produce a credible result...
...If we, as a country, have run into the problem of trying to deal with an incomplete revolution in Iran and haven't figured a way around that, is it surprising that the UN hasn't figured a way around that either...
...Most of the world looks at the UN in terms of "that truck going down the street" or "that technician out there who's helping...
...Samuels: Mr...
...Andy comes from a political background...
...Rostow has a different view...
...I think we are slowly seeing this question of power in Iran work itself out, but slowly...
...We're different people...
...Samuels: What is your view of the PLO, Mr...
...it was not an anti-Israel resolution, and the countries that voted for it can hardly be called anti-Israel...
...He has taught at Howard and Georgetown universities, and has been a guest scholar at the Brookings Institution and an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations...
...The President indicated that the U.S...
...I mean, you're almost saying in this series of questions that there is some difference between me and the President, or I'm anti-Israel or something...
...What have you found to be the obstacles and the advantages in that situation...
...And we are learning to do that...
...The UN got caught up in the Cold War and the discouragement which took place right after that...
...I would add this: We, in the United States, with our marvelous communications and so forth, look at the UN in terms of Iran, Afghanistan, the Middle East, Cuba—very few issues...
...Samuels: No, sir, I was not suggesting that at all...
...Samuels: Thank you, Mr...
...McHenry: Perhaps...
...That was the impression we were left with...
...The statement which you refer to was not a disavowal of the resolution as a whole...
...McHenry: Well, I don't share the view of domination...
...At the U.S...
...It won't do us any good at all to go around trying to persuade people to do this, that or the other...
...There will be the economic, political and developmental problems, which, if resolved in a timely and evolutionary manner, will lead to stability...
...The U.S...
...It is now being fed by distrust of the United States and by a feeling that the main danger to Europe comes not from Soviet ambitions but from mismanaged global rivalry between the superpowers...
...Carter has said that on many occasions...
...I've gone about my work the only way I know how—which is to do a service...
...A recent London Times editorial declared: "There is in fact no doubt that a current of opinion in Europe is flowing towards neutralism...
...I've been telling audiences recently that the problem with the Soviet Union, as far as the Third World is concerned, is that the Soviets look down to their expectations...
...McHenry: But that's an unfair question...
...That is one of the problems we have...
...Mission, Ambassador McHenry today presides over a staff of more than 100...
...Samuels: Most people...
...For me, it is a career...
...Not too long afterward, he went on leave to serve as adviser or representative to various UN agencies...
...What use is the UN...
...McHenry: No...
...McHenry (growing impatient): You know, I almost feel that I'm in an adversary relationship, and I don't like that...
...The examples of the problems are all around you: whether you're talking about Nicaragua or El Salvador...
...And is its "observer status" justified...
...Mission to its top post was widely acclaimed as an excellent choice...
...For unlike Young, known for his impetuous, ebullient nature—and forced to quit following unauthorized secret meetings with representatives of the Palestine Liberation Organization— McHenry is considered the epitome of the traditional career diplomat: He is a skillful, tough negotiator who keeps a low profile...
...What international law...
...We have different backgrounds...
...There has been much speculation in the press and in the Jewish community that you did favor it...
...Samuels: Am I correct in my recollection that the United States, along with Israel, will not tolerate a new Palestinian state in that area...
...Its membership now is three times larger than at the beginning...
...Samuels: Local and regional—is that what you're suggesting...
...Samuels: Mr...
...McHenry: Well, we've stated our view of the PLO almost every time that the Security Council meets...
...But I think one has to learn to do that...
...The treaty came about largely on the initiative of the Carter Administration...
...it was a rather small, homogeneous organization...
...It can do no more than its membership...
...It is 35 years old...
...Samuels: Mr...
...The Constitution of the United States is a group of ideals...
...The UN has run into the problem of dealing with Mr...
...speaker than I am...
...McHenry: My job is not to deal with impressions...
...Samuels: But isn't that controversial...
...McHenry: Well, there's no question but that there has been criticism of the United States by Europeans...
...Bani-Sadr was elected President by a great majority...
...We have to be aware of the possibility of large-scale difficulties, and we have to be strong enough to face them if they should arise...
...If ignored, or unresolved, they will lead to radicalization of the situation—and the possibility of exploitation, and the raising of tensions...
...Again, the resolution was on settlements...
...But among his peers, the appointment of the number two man at the U.S...
...How would you evaluate its impact...
...It was an anti-settlements vote...
...McHenry: Well, the Geneva Conventions [of 1949] very clearly lay that out...
...Samuels: He didn't disavow the vote...
...We've gone through everything from how to handle Kampuchea to Afghanistan, to the tremendous amount of work we've had to do on Iran, to the long discussion of Cuba and its possible Security Council seat, to a number of Security Council meetings on the Middle East, the settlements, Southern Lebanon...
...Born 45 years ago in St...
...the Russians have taken Afghanistan...
...Samuels: War...
...What's your feeling about this perception...
...Samuels: What about its being accepted by the United Nations...
...Then there is another point...
...Samuels: You don't find them anti-American...
...The fact that it has tripled in membership is, in a sense, a tribute to the UN itself...
...Something which will itself commend itself to the people in the area...
...McHenry: Now, wait a minute...
...I think it's important to get that clear...
...Samuels: Radicalization of the Third World...
...McHenry: The second part of it is the framework for dealing with the Palestinian question...
...We should not toss out the Constitution because we haven't achieved them...
...Many of the people who were among the UN's most fervent supporters have become critical of it in recent years, largely over the issue of the Middle East...
...The UN is no more than its membership...
...vote in the UN, condemning Israel's policy of new West Bank settlements, has not helped your position at the UN...
...And I do represent the United States government...
...We don't live up to their expectations...
...Bani-Sadr to get credit for resolving the problem, and therefore reducing their chance of power in Parliament, and so forth...
...Tall, well-tailored, with searching eyes and a tentative smile, he has quickly become one of the UN's major figures...
...Samuels: Meaning...
...Samuels: What are the chances of bringing Jordan into the peace arrangements...
...All of this speculation about what I believe or don't believe has no foundation—because nobody, not even my staff, has ever heard me express a personal view...
...The UN Charter is not just that section on maintenance of international peace and security...
...The fact is that most people there don't agree with our policy toward the Middle East...
...Norway is not anti-Israel...
...I think this has resulted in a tendency to be overcritical of the organization...
...He said that the United States would have abstained with regard to Jerusalem...
...My job is to deal with the facts...
...The President did not say at all that I had acted contrary to the directions of the President...
...Every time we hope significant progress is taking place, it doesn't turn out to have been that...
...Our view of the UN can't be separated from some of the substantive conditions which arise there...
...or the problems in Southeast Asia...
...Samuels: You've been portrayed as a "quiet diplomat...
...So the UN can't produce what we can't produce...
...This organization has been given "observer status" at the UN, yet many see it behaving as if it were a member state...
...We do it at the beginning of every Security Council meeting...
...or the problems in the Horn or in Chad or in North Africa...
...Samuels: What does this tell you about the perception of the American people...
...It's more heterogeneous...
...Louis, Missouri, McHenry received his undergraduate degree at Illinois State University, then went on to earn a master's from Southern Illinois University...
...We cannot toss out the Charter because we haven't achieved its objectives...
...One of its great contributions has been the fulfillment of the goal of independence, and the carrying out of the objectives of the Charter with regard to trust and non-self-governing territories...
...They look at the UN in terms of 90percent of the organization's work, not the 10 per cent that we're focused on...
...He can't do it because he has not been able to consolidate his power...
...McHenry: I don't think it's a question whether the UN accepts it or not...
...It's a question that doesn't really face the issue...
...There are improvements one can see every day...
...Samuels: I would like to move on to the Middle East, Mr...
...The progress that has been made toward resolving the problem of South West Africa (Namibia) is largely credited to his adroit behind-the-scenes maneuvering...
...That treaty has been deposited...
...We have not been able to get the Palestinians to participate—nor Jordan to participate— in those talks...
...Ambassador, which you've indicated is a critical concern of the United States, and to how the Arabs and the Jews perceive the situation...
...I work for the government, and when I speak, I speak for the government...
...There is a certain snobbishness in that approach...
...McHenry: I don't find most of the new members anti-American...
...It is not made up of a bunch of magicians...
...He has a civil rights background...
...McHenry: I wouldn't use "war," because I don't believe we're in a period of large-scale problems...
...is 204 years old...
...the objectives of the Charter...
Vol. 63 • June 1980 • No. 10
