West Bank Autonomy and the Settlements
SAMUELS, GERTRUDE
A TALK WITH BEGIN'S INFORMATION ADVISOR \*fest Bank Autonomy and the Settlements byger^desamuels Harry hurwitz, who is 10 Menachem Begin what Gerald Rafshoon is to Jimmy Carter, granted The New...
...Since they were placed in the Yamit area as a barrier between Israel and Egypt, the reasoning is that they should go into another area where they will fulfill the same function...
...Bir Zeit University, one of the three Arab higher-learning institutions on the West Bank, was shut down in May...
...That goes for Elon Moreh...
...The Camp David agreement didn't specify the details of autonomy...
...The Jews of Israel, of all parts of Israel, will enjoy security...
...This is how Israel has been created right through the years...
...Allow me to read a brief paragraph: "No doubt no other Prime Minister but Begin could bring Israel to such a treaty...
...You know that the arrangement made at Camp David calls for the autonomy negotiations to take, if possible, a year...
...So long as Mr...
...Camp David merely provided a aawral outline and principle of autonomy, so Israel is in fact acting completely m accordance with the spirit of the agreement—even going beyond it...
...Born in 1924 in the small port city of Libau, Latvia (today a Soviet submarine base), the young Hurwitz and his immediate family fled to Johannesburg, South Africa, just before the arrival of the Nazis...
...But even in those periods when refugees were left on the high seas of the world, the Jews wouldn't accept alternative proposals...
...And the USSR proposed Birobijan...
...Isn't that Begin's interpretation of the word autonomy...
...Hurwitz: Based on their judgment, on their reading of international law, on their evaluation of the makeup of the population in the area, and the defense of Israel...
...The government of Israel decided, after due deliberation, that this was the time from the national point of view, from the security point of view, to establish the settlement...
...Hurwitz: Let us accept an elementary fact of democracy...
...And the reaction has not come from the people negotiating the autonomy, who have already completed several rounds of discussions...
...Hurwitz: ...which is a very large majority...
...What is the future for the West Bank and Gaza under Mr...
...This is the great hope...
...I don't understand how the negotiations over autonomy and the establishment of Elon Moreh can destroy the democratic character of Israel...
...When we met, Egyptian and Israeli negotiators were still trying to reach agreement on an agenda for the West Bank Autonomy talks mandated by the Camp David accords, and the establishment of a new Jewish settlement in the hills above the Arab town of Nablus was stirring controversy inside Israel as well as outside...
...You are a very fortunate nation...
...I cannot deal in this interview with the reasons for the decision...
...now there is a book out about the Japanese investigating Manchuria...
...Hurwitz: I don't understand the question...
...You know that the Sinai settlements and the town of Yamit are being handed over to Egyptian control at the end of the three-year period...
...Samuels: What about the moral question here...
...Samuels: Do you have any theory, Mr...
...And we are not prepared to be party to that kind of an arrangement...
...What is their objection to the peace...
...Samuels: Well, there are many American Jews, and many Israelis, including men in your own Cabinet, who object to that Begin definition...
...Hurwitz: (Insistent) How do you suppose Kiryat Shmona or Yad Mor-dechai, settlements that were established in the midst of an Arab population, began—with thousands of people...
...Samuels: Does this include ignoring the views of men like Ezer Weizman and Moshe Dayan...
...But is the Begin approach the answer...
...How would you, as Prime Minister Begin's spokesman, define it...
...But Kibbutz Gonen is inside Israel...
...And now, allow me to come back to the protest raised in America by men of letters, musicians, professors and so on...
...This government, and particularly this Prime Minister of Israel, has encouraged the closest cooperation and partnership between Israel and world Jewry...
...If I remember correctly, there were certain episodes in the history of the United States when the authorities felt impelled to take action against institutions that were the hotbeds of antigovern-ment policy, and antinational interests...
...I have one final question...
...It is the only body authorized to deal with these matters...
...However, the decisions in regard to the fate of Israel are to be taken by the government of Israel, and not by people who have chosen to live wherever they are living...
...There have been criticisms—not only by American Jews but also by prominent Jews inside Israel like Shimon Peres, the Labor Party leader—that this business of establishing settlements, and particularly the timing of Elon Moreh, plus Begin's definition of autonomy, will very possibly help to destroy the image of Israel as a democratic state...
...Peace, the positive development of peace, is not accepted by them...
...Tomorrow, we may have a similar situation in the Gaza District...
...In fact, in the last two years the government has established some 50 settlements in the areas of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and the Golan...
...You didn't have a bomb in the marketplace of New York this morning, as we had in Herzliya two days ago, and in Petach Tikvah three days ago...
...In the case of the area we are discussing, the plan now being negotiated was originally presented by the Prime Minister of Israel...
...There was Uganda...
...At the end of the five years, the eventual status and sovereignty of the area will be discussed and decided...
...Samuels: Of course...
...In response to direct questions, he declared categorically that his staff regards Elon Moreh as a security necessity...
...That goes for the settlements in the Jordan Valley Rift, and that goes for the settlements on the Golan...
...Maybe it is...
...But let us return to the issue of security...
...The highest court of Israel, in an earlier judgment, has ruled positively on the full legality of settlement in all parts of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District...
...But now let me explain a certain principle...
...the quality or condition of being autonomous...
...Who is able...
...not autonomy over the land as well, the fields, water resources, and so on...
...They prefer to let the Palestine Liberation Organization do the talking...
...From the moment the agreement was drawn until now, the United States, Egypt and Israel have called on the remaining parties to enter into the negotiations...
...And the previous governments have also established some tens of settlements in the Jordan Valley Rift...
...A TALK WITH BEGIN'S INFORMATION ADVISOR \*fest Bank Autonomy and the Settlements byger^desamuels Harry hurwitz, who is 10 Menachem Begin what Gerald Rafshoon is to Jimmy Carter, granted The New Leader an exclusive interview during a brief visit to this country last week...
...it provides the opportunity for the Arab inhabitants to live a free life within their own communities, and to make the maximum of it...
...Peres means if he said that...
...Samuels: Let me turn, for just a moment to another West Bank issue...
...Moreover, the high court ruled in a previous case that because any spot in an area where there is a generally hostile, unsympathetic population could become the launching pad for an attack against Israel, it is permissible to take actions that could prevent such interventions...
...It's his idea...
...But this has not been Israel's attitude...
...The court was called upon to deal with an order nisi with regard to land that has been requisitioned...
...When you consider that the Labor government of Britain ruled with a minority for four years, then a majority of eight over five in a cabinet out of 17 is a massive majority...
...Samuels: Let's stay with the American Jewish protest condemning the Begin approach...
...And his autonomy proposal, which is the basis of the current negotiations between Israel and Egypt, seeks to achieve this...
...The only right Israel would retain is for the Arab inhabitants of the area to have full administrative autonomy, and for Israel to retain full control of the security, to provide security for all of the citizens—Jewish and Arab—in the region...
...Eighteen months ago, Begin was accused of being the obstacle to peace with Egypt...
...Hurwitz: Yes, well, Webster's dictionary does not determine the policy and future of the government and people of Israel...
...Hurwitz: I think you're presuming some things here about which we should be very clear...
...What is more, the coexistence between Israel and Egypt is developing satisfactorily in all directions...
...Hurwitz: Yes...
...There are some 700,000 Palestenains living in Judea and Samaria, and since I happen to know the area rather well, I am aware that no local Arab leader is willing to speak for them...
...We haven't closed down the institutions...
...Tall, elegant, mustachioed, his gray suit and matching tie were as impeccable as his British-accented English, and he appeared to relish his role as the conversation got under way in the I5th-floor offices of the Consulate of Israel in Manhattan...
...Hurwitz: Your question implies that the settlement was established by a group of individuals who received the special blessing of Israel...
...Samuels: What is your opinion of the Peace Now movement...
...These settlements are security necessities...
...Hurwitz: Yes...
...That is not the issue...
...I was also present at a recent discussion with the officer in charge of the forces that control the whole area...
...It has frozen development for one month, to enable it to consider the application further...
...Samuels: The Cabinet split down the middle of this issue, didn't it...
...Is that a tactical reason for the establishment of Elon Moreh...
...This implies that Israel is perhaps a military invader, and not thereby right...
...I can merely ask you to accept that in matters of security and of national development, the government of Israel is best qualified to determine when it is the right time and when it is not the right time to act...
...I can tell you in advance that the government of Israel will lay claim to sovereignty in the area...
...Samuels: We're talking here about a handful of people on a desolate little piece of land...
...Why this extraordinary hard line at this time...
...After all, in the last century the world community has suggested about a dozen different Jewish homelands...
...The reason is that there is a historic, Biblical association between the people of Israel and the land of Israel...
...Hurwitz: Why are you prejudging the negotiations...
...We have said we would like Jordan to be in the picture, but if it is not, we will continue our negotiations with Egypt, with the participation of the United States, in the hopes of reaching an agreement...
...Hurwitz: We hadn't noted any diminution of the attitude among Arabs before Elon Moreh...
...How would you answer that criticism...
...Samuels: Why do you suppose this small band of men and women decided to plant themselves within four miles of possible terrorism from Arab Nablus...
...In fact, only a few weeks ago a number of prominent American Jews—among them Saul Bellow, the Nobel laureate, and that good friend of Israel, Leonard Bernstein—addressed a letter of protest to the Prime Minister...
...Hurwitz, with the negotiations between Israel and Egypt on the future status of the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza soon to begin, there is a good deal of confusion about the meaning of one word as it applies to those occupied areas...
...Samuels: Thank you very much...
...Samuels: Mr...
...Still, the American protest marks the first time that Jews are seeking to weaken the position of the government of Israel from outside...
...And we now know that this proposal paved the way for the negotiations that resulted in the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt...
...That goes for Haifa...
...And I'm afraid that what is happening now is a departure, and we will not take these things lightlySamuels: In the context of Prime Minister Begin's point of view, would you explain the timing, the strategy, the reason behind the creation of the tiny, new settlement of Elon Moreh by the Gush Emunim religious group, which is supported by the government, close to so large an Arab town as Nablus...
...Samuels: Why do you think the press keeps referring only to Begin's Biblical explanation...
...A very nice slogan...
...Samuels: Based on what...
...And if this saves the life of one woman or one child, then Israel is fully justified...
...For the government determined the course of the peace negotiations?and that has produced the most remarkable change in the entire Middle East in the past 21 years...
...And the two peoples will develop the ability to live together in all parts of Eretz Yisrael...
...This is perhaps the biggest sacrifice Israel is making for the sake of peace with Egypt...
...Indeed, it is the very heart of the matter...
...Samuels: Exactly...
...If Israel wanted to stick to the letter of the agreement, if Israel wanted to procrastinate, it could very well say, "Gentlemen, we have nothing further to discuss on autonomy until Jordan comes into the cycle...
...Nobody has yet accepted anything, because the matter is now before the court...
...We were being driven from port to port in identical little ships, and the whole world closed its eyes to these miserable flotsam and jetsam of the time...
...A year ago, shortly after immigrating to Israel, Hurwitz replaced Shmuel Katz as the Prime Minister's Advisor on Information...
...Hurwitz, as to why the Palestinians themselves, who live and work not only on the West Bank but also inside Israel, feel the same hatred for Israel...
...there was a part of the Argentine...
...Samuels: Have they accepted...
...Hurwitz: All right, that's in Israel...
...If Jordan is not present, we are not prepared to discuss the matter...
...But the national interest dictates certain procedures, and the government of Israel is carrying them into effect...
...Hurwitz: Maybe it is...
...Hurwitz: It is in accord with the democratic practices of the world...
...If there is any person in Israel who can find the way to coexistence with the Palestinians, it is Prime Minister Begin...
...Hurwitz: You've given your own answer...
...The fact is that the very essence of the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt—which is, after all, a positive, human development—has been rejected by the majority of the Arab world...
...Not now...
...does not provide for sovereignty or for independence...
...Hurwitz: You don't have an internal terrorist problem, my dear lady...
...Samuels: Plus abstentions...
...I also want peace now...
...Samuels: It is the timing of Elon Moreh that is upsetting so many people...
...That is the trust on which it was elected...
...Hurwitz, you've been very patient...
...Samuels: Nonetheless, is this or is this not a clear case of expropriation of another's—the Arabs'—land and water and homes, and yes, even their birthright...
...Twenty years later, what was once a handful of dusty huts has been turned into a little paradise...
...Hurwitz: The strange thing is that the tempers have not come from Mr...
...Now really, was it \ ital to establish this settlement right in the middle of autonomy negotiations...
...He was "intransigent," "inflexible...
...Essentially, it opposed Begin's notion of autonomy...
...My personal view is that the former are making a mountain out of a molehill...
...Hurwitz: 1 hope you are not misinterpreting the judgment of the highest court of Israel...
...Sadat...
...The reaction has not come from Mr...
...It's very simple to make such declarations...
...then there is to be a transition period in which the autonomy is actually to work in practice for five years...
...The issue is Peace-How...
...II it did, 12 months of negotiations would not be required...
...Nevertheless, it is rather strange that these people, who in the past used to express their opinions against unfavorable and harsh policies of the government of Britain and other governments hostile to the Jewish people, have for the first time gone public in certain combinations against the policies of the government of Israel...
...There is a difference between expropriation and requisition...
...Hurwitz: Because it is a hotbed of anti-Israel agitation...
...Samuels: That brings me to a letter I received from a friend, Gaby Ezer, one of the founders of Kibbutz Gonen...
...there was Angola...
...The High Court of Israel ruled some months ago, I think it was in March, that the establishment of any settlements in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District are legal from Israel's point of view...
...Prior to the negotiations between Israel and Egypt, the Peace Now movement created a furor in the world by suggesting that Israel was obstructing the peace process...
...Samuels: But let me note, Mr...
...There are two elements guiding the government of Israel in establishing settlements and determining where they should be set up...
...Sadat...
...That is determined by the Cabinet of Israel, after due consideration...
...2. any state that governs itself...
...It offers them democracy...
...The governments of Egypt and Israel have succeeded in establishing very good, normal relations in regard to various fields of endeavor, and in the peacemaking process, the evolution of peace in the Middle East...
...We had an attitude: that we may disagree in the various Jewish and Zionist organizations—there was room for debate and disagreement—but outside, we supported Israel unreservedly and unconditionally...
...Israel's interference in their life will be reduced to the absolute minimum...
...When we question our right to be in the Jordan Valley Rift, and the other settlements in Judea and Samaria and the Gaza District, we raise a crucial question: What are the Jewish people doing in that part of the world altogether...
...They are entitled to express their opinions...
...Having made that clear, I want to turn to autonomy...
...Samuels: That is all very well in terms of settlements generally...
...How then can it be contrary to democratic practices...
...Samuels: Am 1 prejudging...
...Samuels: Has not the highest court of Israel now frozen any further development of Elon Moreh, because of certain irregularities involved with acquiring the land...
...It offers them elections...
...Hurwitz: Given time, without extraneous factors rocking the boat, a way will be found to negotiate a satisfactory arrangement whereby the Arab inhabitants of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District will enjoy a very considerable degree of administrative autonomy...
...We are living at the moment with the picture of the Vietnamese refugees—the boat people...
...I believe this is the concensus of the people responsible for Israel's defense and security, who should determine the issue—rather than leave it to a group of people in the United States who have published a letter protesting Israel's action...
...Begin is entitled to the recognition and the confidence that he is moving in the same direction in the case of the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District...
...there was Madagascar...
...This facility being offered is one no previous administration in the area offered to them—neither the Turks nor the British nor the Jordanians nor previous governments of Israel...
...Let me remind you of the following essential detail: Camp David specified that the negotiations on autonomy should take place between Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and representatives of the Arab inhabitants of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District...
...Samuels: But don't you feel that this particular move is uniting the Arab world even more in their common feeling—hatred of Israel...
...So what more must Egypt and Israel do, to win the support of the Arab world...
...You Americans are very fortunate...
...Everybody in Israel wants peace now...
...Samuels: Mr...
...Samuels: You consider that a democratic course to follow...
...It's his innovation...
...Secondly, you speak of Israel as being the country in occupation of the area...
...And until such time as the danger is removed, it will remain closed on orders of the government of Israel...
...Begin is in office, the government alone will decide the policy of Israel from its viewpoint...
...In the light of what happened subsequently, their agitation then looks absolutely ridiculous...
...Samuels: But the Peace Now movement began in Israel itself, did it not...
...Hurwitz: May I point out out, first, a difference in terminology: You speak of Gaza and the West Bank...
...It offers them the opportunity of choosing their own leaders...
...Having brought this about, Mr...
...But at this particular time, with peace negotiations under way, why encourage such activity when so many people feel it only serves to further isolate President Sadat and Egypt in the Arab world...
...To us, "West Bank" is a terminological inexactitude...
...I realize that this is not necessarily the attitude or interpretation of other parties to the negotiation, but it is important to know what the Prime Minister and government of Israel had in mind...
...The Elon Moreh settlement is an isolated incident that some people are endeavoring to exaggerate and magnify and others are keeping in its correct perspective...
...Samuels: Perhaps I have...
...What w ill be the reaction if security factors oblige us to pursue this course...
...And I have seen this kind of beginning with one of my favorite kibbutzim—Gonen, in the Upper Galilee—which was started by a handful of youngsters from the World Scout movement...
...And the policy of Israel is determined by its government, not by groups of demonstrators on either side of the poitical spectrum...
...the right of self-government...
...We are not taking over their land...
...And it is the essence of democracy that the minority accepts the viewpoint of the majority, abides by it, and carries it into effect...
...I don't understand what the question means, and what Mr...
...Does the Begin Administration expect the PLO to use Judea and Samaria as its new staging area for terrorism against Israel, as it has used Jordan and Lebanon...
...They were under the Golan then, under the Syrian guns on top of their valley...
...They have been offered compensation...
...With handfuls of people, pioneering people...
...Hurwitz: Some may...
...The objection is that some of them are not concerned with peace, but with the elimination of the Jewish State...
...Hurwitz: According to late opinion polls, the majority of them do not accept the existence of the Jewish State...
...The court did not order the settlers to leave the land...
...Samuels: We've had demonstrations here—at Berkeley, Kent State, Columbia, Harvard, City College...
...There he became a leader of the Zionist Revisionist movement, a member of the Herut Party, and a prominent Anglo-Jewish journalist...
...Yet he does not seem to be able to go on and find the way for coexistence with the Palestinians...
...I opposed the policies of previous governments of Israel when I lived abroad [in South Africa], I was critical in the newspapers of those policies...
...they braved on only to the Land of Israel...
...The government of Israel is the government of Israel because it has been elected to office by the requisite majority of the people of Israel...
...and it has been proposed that they be resettled in the Gaza District...
...tionary definition of autonomy: "1...
...On the contrary, the autonomy proposal is a great, humane, moral proposal aimed at uplifting the status of the Arab inhabitants of Judea, Samaria and Gaza...
...There are, to be sure, different definitions and different interpretations of the word...
...Hurwitz: Because this is a very important factor...
...Hurwitz, the Webster's New World DicGertrude Samuels, who regularly covers the United Nations for The New Leader, recently published a novel on the civil war in Lebanon...
...The proposal that has been made by the government is as I have defined it...
...Hurwitz: I regret to say that I disagree with that quote entirely...
...The settlers there are going to be rehoused, resettled...
...How, under your Begin definition, could the areas you call Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District govern themselves if all you're allowing is administrative autonomy—that is, for the people who live there...
...Hurwitz: Of course...
...The government of Israel regards Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District as integral parts of Eretz Yisrael, the Land of Israel...
...Samuels: Peace-How...
...Hurwitz: In a democracy there is room for differences of opinion...
...Hurwitz: This was not necessarily a strict difference of opinion: There were eight votes in favor, and five against...
...Hurwitz: The Peace Now movement is a group of people in Israel who are entitled to their opinion...
...You imply that the government's policy will not produce the desired result...
...More to the point, can we allow that reaction to dictate our decision...
...We have the view that the area was under enemy occupation from '48-'67, that it was liberated in 1967, and that Israel is not there as an occupier...
...Yet this "intransigent," "inflexible" Menachem Begin produced the miracle of the times: the first peace treaty between Israel and an Arab state—not just any Arab state but the largest, the most populous, the strongest Arab country in the region...
...That goes for Tel Aviv...
...Thus far, they have refused to do so...
...This is the great vision, and we must give it every opporuntity to develop...
...Begin's autonomy plan...
...Therefore, what he and his government had in mind is important...
...Hurwitz: I don't agree that it's an extraordinary hard line...
...But we never organized public protests against the actions and policies of Israel...
...All the more reason for the govenment of Israel to take whatever action is necessary to provide maximum security for the civilian population...
...It was regarded at the time, by the heads of government in the free world, as a positive and constructive idea...
...There is a Cabinet of 17 people, and on many issues there are differences of opinion...
...Thus there may be new settlements of Jews right in the midst of the Arab population of the Gaza District...
...The text was read in Tel Aviv at a Peace Now rally...
...It should be noted that the Commander-in-Chief of the Israeli Army has said he considers Elon Moreh a security necessity...
...The word, of course, is "autonomy...
...Much more so than in the past...
...Their position is that the Arab inhabitants of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District are being offered full administrative autonomy...
...Hurwitz: First of all, the land has not been expropriated...
...You may remember that in the '30s there was a problem of Jewish refugees...
...Why is it still closed to the students...
...we speak of the Gaza District and Judea and Samaria...
...Today, we are involved with Elon Moreh, which has been magnified out of a molehill—because it is a real molehill...
...In other words, they will be offered the opportunity of attending to their own local affairs—education, hospitalization, internal transportation, internal administration...
Vol. 62 • July 1979 • No. 14
