A Talk with Chaim Herzog

...Sincerity also of the Saudi Arabians7 Herzog No, I am talking about the members of Congress But I ask them, who are we supposed to believe The members of Congress, the members of the Administration who tell us that the Saudi Arabians will not use the weapons9 Or Prince Fahd of Saudi Arabia who only three or four weeks ago, in Paris Match in France, said that if necessary the planes will be used against Israel9 After all, he knows best what they Saudis are thinking Samuels As a political as well as a military analyst, Mr Ambassador, to what extent do you feel the package sale represents a change in the 30-year special relationship the U S has had with Israel7 Herzog Well, I don't think it represents a change in the basic strategy of the relationship between Israel and the U S because that, after all, is a function of the United States' interests Every President of the United States has said that Israel's security is of vital interest to the U S You have only to look today at the area where we lie at the apex—the Middle East, Africa, the Mediteuanean Samuels Are you suggesting that there has been no change in this historic relationship9 Herzog I'll try to evaluate the historic relationship You look at the Middle East, Africa and Mediterranean basin, and you see what's going on now—all the strife, all the internecine warfare, the rise of the Communist party in southern Europe, the rise of terror—and these are areas into which the United States has poured billions upon billions of dollars Then you look at Israel, the one stable country there, devoted to the values and principles the United States abides by, and you see that it has been the best investment the United States has made We are the major factor in keeping the Soviet Union out of the Middle East In short, I don't think the United States' interests have changed And I don't think that any objective evaluation of U S interests could change its attitude toward Israel But there is definitely, I would say, a tactical change How deep that tactical change is, I don't know We cannot ignore the fact that Israel still gets a great deal of aid from the United States, a very high percentage of military aid, and a great deal of support But it is quite clear that the present Administration has made up its mind that, come what may, it must achieve a solution, and it seems to be easier to lean on Israel than on the Arab world Samuels- What about the recent stories that Jewish purchases of Arab land on the West Bank have irritated not only the Arabs but the Carter Administration9 Herzog...

...Very much I would put it this way There's a great measure of anti-Semitism behind that majority And really the Jewish people are not aware, in my view, and liberals throughout the world are not aware, most hateful anti-Semitic philosophy imaginable They don't talk about Zionists today—they talk about Jews I've often said that Israel is attacked the way it is m the United Nations because it's a small, Jewish democracy Because we're small and don't belong to a bloc, we're fair game for everybody, and there's a tremendous amount of innate anti-Semitism—which I talk about openly, incidentally—among many of the countries represented in the General Assembly We also arouse the hatred of the bulk of the countries because we're a democracy, there's hatred, or envy, because we're so free I'm practically the only delegate to the United Nations who can say quite freely what he wants to say Samuels: What about the Americans, and the Western countries' Herzog: The Americans have to be very careful if they want to criticize their Western colleagues They've got to be very careful about detente They've got to be very careful about all sorts of attitudes Why do I say this' Governor William Scranton, one of the most impressive Americans that I've met, and one of the most impressive representatives to the UN, I think, that America has ever had, said before he left his post here that the most honest delegation to the United Nations was the Israeli delegation Samuels...

...Well, why isn't all this just as apparent to the Carter Administration7 Herzog: That I can't explain I think it would be apparent to the American public I think it's not made clear enough to them Samuels...

...Mr Ambassador, I've been looking at the title here of your new book, Who Stands Accused7 It's a very provocative title Who, basically, stands accused7 Herzog...

...I think a great opportunity was missed by the Carter Administration in the case of the plane deal Last year, it had a carrot with which it could have encouraged the Egyptians to come back to the negotiating table supported by Saudi Arabia It could have said to the Arabs It is difficult to get the package through Congress because of political considerations in Washington, but if you come back to the negotiating table, then it will be easy to push through the arms deal The Arab mentality is such that now that they believe they have scored a victory over what they call the Israeli lobby in Washington, they by their very nature will be recalcitrant They will up the ante, and they will become much more intransigent and much harder in negotiations Samuels Could we explore that a bit more, Mr Ambassador7 Could you give us a fuller sense of how Israel sees the package deal7 Herzog: First of all, there's a moral aspect here, and more than a moral aspect For besides any agreement we might reach in the Middle East, we must also be involved in some parallel agreement with the United States, affecting our security We will have certain undertakings from the United States government, I am sure, whatever they are, and the whole packaging of the jet sale raises the question of their credibility Because we had an agreement in 1975, freely entered into, between Israel and the United States, whereby we would withdraw from the Suez Canal and from the oil fields, Gertrude Samuels, who covers the UN for The New Leader, will soon publish a novel on the civil war in Lebanon GERTRUDE SAMUELS back to the first line of passes in the Sinai, and the United States would strengthen our defense posture in order to compensate for what we lost We carried out our part of the deal, and suddenly, with the United States having to carry out its part of the deal, it links it—it "packages" it—with something new, a new condition never envisaged before Now, this raises the question as to the reliability of American undertakings And it is very, very disturbing, and must be very disturbing to other small countries Another question is this Who are we to believe about the Saudi Arabians saying they're not going to use the planes against Israel'' And I would stress here that I do not doubt the sincerity of all those who participated in the debate, and who called for this deal to be carried out I do not doubt their sincerity or their good will toward Israel Samuels...

...Mr Ambassador, much has been made in the media about the division in Israel among leadership types—and among Jewish leadership types in America as well—on ways to "give peace a chance " How do you evaluate this division7 Herzog Well, I evaluate it exactly as you would any division here in the United States on energy or taxes or foreign policy We're a democracy It's quite amazing to see how people in the United States look with wonder and a lack of understanding on the processes of democracy operating in Israel, when they should understand it, and should not read too much into it Samuels: What about the letter of 36 leaders here who went public with their support of the "peace now" group in Israel7 Herzog- So there were 36 people who didn't agree with the government of Israel, who went public I can produce letters from many more than 36 equally brilliant people who support the Israeli government, and I guarantee that this would not be published on the front page of the New York Times So just because the letter of the 36 panders to what certain members of an editorial board feel should be Israel's policy—that doesn't necessarily mean you've got a major division in American Jewry, or in Israel The American Jewish community is democratic We're a democracy—and, of course, there are differences of opinion No government in Israel will ever get 98 2 per cent, like President Sadat did a few weeks ago We just don't work that way Nor do you Samuels: Let me go back to the jet plane sale for a moment, Mr Ambassador, the historic relationship with Israel that many people here are worried about Is it your feeling that this has now become a hfe-and-death struggle for Israel7 Herzog...

...Frankly, all I know about that is what I've read in the newspapers Perhaps what is most important, though, is that the issue is making headlines in Israel, that it is being discussed and has been brought before the courts The Israeli courts have seen fit to give temporary comfort to those who claim the land has been wrongfully taken from the Arabs 1 just don't know all the legal details As a lawyer, I would rather not comment on something I don't know everything about But the court proceedings do highlight the fact that we are the onlv countn in the whole area governed by the rule of law, as the concept is understood here in the United States and as we understand it in the Western democracies Israel is one of the very few countries left in the world—there are maybe 30 among 149 members of the United Nations—where the courts can go against the government, if necessary, to redress what they think is a wrong Now the matter is before the courts All they have granted is an order nisi, which means that the Minister of Defense has to give cause within 40 days as to why the purchasers should or should not be allowed to go ahead, and we will see afterward how the courts really decide But Israel has again proved it is the only living democracy in the area, and it is an example to the area that is watched very closely Samuels The criticism being made is that it is part of Prime Minister Menachem Begin's program to encourage Israelis to buy land in the occupied areas Herzog I don't see what's wrong with buying land in the territories I just don't see it I don't see what's wrong with buying it if you are Jewish In other words, 1 strongly resent the philosophy behind the moves against such land purchases—that simply because one is Jewish one should be prevented from doing this I leave aside the political angle, but if an Arab wants to sell land, and a Jew wants to buy land, and he pays and does everything according to law, then my view is that there's nothing wrong Any attempt to say this is wrong, to see in it some insidious development, is basing itself on the Nuremberg laws Samuels Mr Ambassador, would you comment on Prime Minister Begin's image of intransigence in this country This persists despite his offer to return all of the Sinai to the Egyptians, despite his offer of self-rule on the West Bank, and despite his stressing that while he has put these proposals on the lable, there's been no response, no counter-offer Herzog It all goes to show the strength of publiL relations The tact is that President Sadat is a very able PR man, and the fact is that Israel has not been doing so well in this field Because really what you're seeing at the moment is Orwellian—it's "new-speak " President Sadat says, "Not one inch—take it or leave it, these are my conditions " He came to the Knesset and said it Prime Mimster Begin says, "the whole of Sinai and self-rule in the West Bank " You may or may not agree that this is enough, but it is a major concession Even President Sadat has conceded that Israel offered much more than he ever thought it would Yet, in the eyes of the public, the side that hasn't yielded one inch is considered to be making concessions, to be moderate, and the side that's made the major concessions is considered to be intransigent This is a tribute to President Sadat's PR efforts It says something less about Israel's PR skills, which are sorely lacking Samuels- What would you suggest be done9 Herzog: To take it seriously But for the next few months I am still working for the government of Israel, so it's really not my place to say what can be done at this stage If anyone were to ask me officially within the government, I would tell them, and I have a very good idea what could be done In my view it's not a very difficult problem, it just has to be dealt with at the right level and by the right people Samuels: Are you speaking here of the media'' Herzog...

...Because it's governed to a degree by the General Assembly, which has an automatic majority of Communists and Arabs and so-called nonahgned countries Nothing is more aligned than the nonahgned countries' Therefore, whatever Israel will do will be wrong Somebody pointed out that of the degree of the rise of anti-Semi-tism in the world as reflected today in the United Nations I see it there every day And I think we're living under an illusion if we believe that period is past in the world On the contrary I think it's more virulent and more extreme than it ever was I saw it in the Zionism/racism debate, but I see it on many, many occasions now The Communist group are virulent anti-Semites of the worst sort And the Arabs are excruciating It's unbelievable They've been brought up on the if Israel were to propose a formal resolution at the UN that the globe of the world is round, there would be an automatic majority for the theory that the world is flat There's nothing we can do about it That's the way it is, with this automatic majority agamst us, and we stand to gam nothing whatsoever Samuels: Do you see that automatic majority as an anti-Semitic majority9 Herzog...

...I'm speaking first of all about the governmental organization, and that's something I can't go into right now because I am bound by the fact that I'm a civil servant, however temporary I will certainly go into it later Samuels: Now that the military and political ballgame, so to speak, is outside the United Nations in respect to what we may call peace initiatives, what role do you envisage for the United Nations m the Middle East' Herzog: I don't envisage any role for the United Nations as such in the Middle East in the negotiating process I think the UN would be an adverse element m that process, a negative element Samuels: Why negative9 Herzog...

...Do you have any examples, Mr Ambassador, of how this anti-Semitism has been showing itself Herzog: Yes Many When that be-medaled buffoon Idi Amm [the President of Uganda] spoke to the General Assembly, I didn't stay in the hall because I didn't want to be in the position of having to rise to greet him (Most other countries stayed, including the French and the British, who had to leave in the middle because he insulted them ) When he called for the destruction of Israel, a girl in the group of the UN workers standing around listening didn't applaud Her boss, an Algerian, said to her, "Why aren't you applauding'" She replied, "Because he's calling for the destruction of my country " And he said, "Well, if you don't applaud, I'll have you dismissed " This was overheard by a very senior official of the United Nations, who immediately told him, "If you do anything against this girl, you will be dismissed " He called to tell me about the incident And this girl is not Jewish, she's an Armenian Israeli Another example concerns a Mexican girl who came to see me She had gone tor an interview at the UN The mtci viewing officei began to make the most violent anti-Israeli and anti-Jew-ish statements to sec what hei reaction would be, to tind out if she was lewish since he couldn't ask hci ducctly She didn't icacl Bui she came alterward to tell me about it We've had dozens of cases like that But you only have to read the speeches of some of the Arabs and some of the Communists to see that the days of Der Sturmer are not over yet Samuels: Mr Ambassador, after your long tenure here, and your many battles in the UN, how would you sum up your experiences and what are your feelings about the UN's future' Herzog: Well, I think the UN is heading toward oblivion Because of itself Unless the UN saves itself from itself—and there is a move to do that Samuels: Would you clarify that —saving itself from itself Herzog: The voting system is ridiculous It's false democracy In the voting that you have in a national parliament, the person voting has a responsibility to his constituents, and something higher, to his country Here, it is simply part of the deal In a democracy, the majority has a responsibility toward the minority Here, on the contrary, the majority sees its purpose to demolish the minority, just as in any dictatorship, and they vote accordingly So the whole system is false and perverted Unless they abolish the voting system as it exists, they're not going to get very far The UN puts on a big show It gets lots of heads of state and governments to come and meet, and give cocktail parties, and wine and dine each other, but nothing happens We're having a disarmament conference Nothing will come of it—it's just words, a lot of words This is an organization where, 50 per cent of the time, the General Assembly is devoted to maligning Israel Take the official verbatim report of the last General Assembly, printed in six languages Do you know that the section maligning Israel—the repeated diatribes against Israel—alone cost $375,000' Now that money could have been used tor peace efforts in the world Then you've got Arab pohticiza-tion in all the specialized agencies You've got the World Health Organization, which slopped dealing with health and began to deal with the Israel-Arab conflict They send a delegation to examine the health in the territories administered by Israel, and when it comes back with a favorable report they vote not to hear it Instead, they send another delegation with clear instructions, so it ignores the whole health aspect and deals with politics m its report Or take unesco It condemns Israel for archaeological digs in Jerusalem that are benefitting history and scientists throughout the world—Moslem and Jewish and Christian Then it sends a professor from Belgium to examine the situation, and when he comes back with a favorable report they refuse to hear it Samuels- Are you suggesting that there should not be a United Nations' Herzog...

...No, I think if there were no United Nations, something like it would have to be created What I'm saying is that we must improve the United Nations We must break up this politicization, get rid of it The United States has given a warning by leaving the ILO [International Labor Organization]—I think that was very helpful 1 think they're all frightened now that this might happen further The U S pays 25 per cent of the budget of the UN, which is devoted primarily today to operating against the interests of the United States Since the slaughter of Israeli athletes in Munich in 1972, the UN has been trying to work out a convention against terrorism They haven't done it yet, because the Arabs and the Communists have blocked it Since 1976, the UN has been trying to get a convention against the taking of hostages—hijacking and the taking ot hostages?that the West German government introduced Again, it is being blocked by the Arabs and the Communists You cannot get anything meaningful through Onlv last Near, because the airline pilots were going to strike, onlv then did the\ put something \\ish\-wash\ through Samuels Speaking ot teironsm, would \ou comment on what seems to he some son ol dm e in the Carter VI-mmistrulion to pressuic Isiael to come to teims with the existence ol the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLOP Herzog: 1 haven't felt that pressure by the Administration, I must say, no On the contrary, I think at a certain stage the Carter Administration woke up to the true nature of the PLO There was a period of two years when the American media, the press, by tendentious reporting, by trying to adapt the news to their views—in many, many cases, and I can cite them chapter and verse—was trying to give the impression to the American people that the PLO was moderate, and that it recognized [UN Resolution] 242 and wanted to come to terms with Israel But that's been a lie Each time, the PLO has just been fooling around with American correspondents, who have been unbelievably naive And every time, a few days after the press comes out with these headlines, always front-page headlines, the PLO denies them The PLO is unable to control itself Arafat has no support from his own organization There is a move to get rid of him in his own organization The UN forces now in Lebanon find they can't deal with him They have to deal with eight different terrorist organizations It's a loose grouping of terrorist organizations And I definitely think that the Carter Administration has definitely woken up to the PLO Furthermore, not only are we against the PLO but so are Egypt and Jordan and, to a degree, Saudi Arabia, although Saudi Arabia finances it Saudi Arabia today is financing an organization that is linked to the Red Brigades in Italy, believe it or not A big PLO group that came to assassinate Sadat was caught in Egypt recently, and they admitted they were linked to the Red Brigades in Italy But talking about Saudi Arabia, it's not generally known that Saudi Arabian troops served shoulder to shoulder against Israel for almost two years?973, 74 and 75—on the Golan Heights There was a brigade of Cuban troops next to a brigade of Saudi Arabian troops So much for the danger of Communism that faces Saudi Arabia Samuels...

...Mr Ambassador, I'd like to begin with the U S decision to sell jet warplanes to Egypt and Saudi Arabia as well as Israel What effect do you think this will have on the situation in the Middle East'' Herzog...

...No, I wouldn't put it that way, because we've had a life-and-death struggle really since we've come into existence It's part of that life-and-death struggle, yes But I'm sure we'll get on top of this as well We have now to address ourselves to the problem because it changes the military balance [The package sale) means that we have to strengthen our defenses Samuels: You believe it does change the balance, contrary to what the President's national security adviser, Zbig-mew Brzezinski, and others in the Administration have been saying7 Herzog: It definitely changes the military balance, very much so, and we will have to take that into all our military considerations If anybody says it doesn't change the military balance, then I'm afraid they don't know what the real significance of the F-15 is, and they re not too aware, or they don't want to be too aware, of the military problems facing Israel Samuels: Apropos of that, reports show that far from there being an oil shortage m this country, m fact there is an oversupply of oil, especially on the West Coast But the Carter Administration insists the need of the Western countries for oil is so great that we must make the Saudis our friends What's your answer to this core argument of Carter's Middle East policy7 Herzog Yes, as you point out, there is a glut now on the market, because the West Coast is getting the Alaska oil, and also all the countries of the world, after 1973, filled up all their reservoirs, all the reserves, the tanks that they could find to fill up The net result is that Saudi Arabian production in recent months has gone back 30 per cent And therefore, if they don't raise the price of oil today, it's not because they're friends, doing a favor to the United States It's because they're doing a favor to themselves They wouldn't sell the oil otherwise, when there's a glut on the market Now, I agree that there may not be a glut later on, the slack may be taken up and more Arab oil may again be required But the answer to this, of course, is that it's about time a country like the United States took itself out of its lethargy in this matter, and did not allow itself to become a hostage—to anybody in the world The greatest country in the world can't allow itself to become a hostage Another point is this Despite what people believe, the United States and the West are not hostages of Saudi Arabia or the oil states The reverse is true If the price goes up much more, new sources of oil—like shale oil, and sand oil—will be developed because it will then become economical for this to happen, and the oil-producing countries do not want this to happen Therefore, it's in their interest not to raise the price of oil But there is a still more important argument Saudi Arabia has invested approximately $30 billion in the Western economies And the Gulf oil states are investing about $2 billion a month in the West There's nowhere else to invest, because they can't invest in the Soviet Union That makes them hostages of the West, because anything they do to prejudice Western economies—say, by raising the price of oil out of all proportion—would immediately affect the market, would immediately affect the value of their investments in the Western world They would be cutting their nose to spite their tacc Samuels...

...And the United States —does it stand accused7 Herzog: Much less than all the others 1 can take issue with the United States on many matters, but when I look at the whole world, I have to thank God for the United States, and for the stand it has taken on many basic issues I would never mention the United States in the same breath as other countries Samuels Finally, Mr Ambassador, the traditional question What hope do you see for peace7 Herzog I thmk there is hope for peace, if the media would only leave us alone and let us get on with the work We have, after all, negotiated with the Egyptians for about 15 hours in the past six months, according to the estimate of their Minister of State during an address to the Egyptian Parliament m April That's all we've been negotiating It took the United States 13 years to negotiate the Panama Canal treaty, it took you four years to negotiate the Vietnam agreement Why should we be expected to negotiate the problems of a 30-year old conflict in 15 hours7 If we go back to the negotiating table, I'm sure we can advance—I hope we can advance—and I personally believe that we already have advanced considerably The situation in the Middle East today has changed out of all recognition to what it was I think we've made a major psychological breakthrough But we have to continue And the United States and the free world must urge the parties to get back to the negotiating table Onlv that way will we advance This new method now, of trying to get Israel to concede before she sits down at the negotiating table, that won't hold water, anvwav, it won't work with us Samuels Thank you very much...

...About the title, first of all, those were the words with which I opened the defense of Israel in the Security Council debate on the Entebbe operation I said then, 'Who stands accused—me7 Or international terror7' And I pointed out that the whole world is subject to international terror, but it took the small country of Israel to stand up to it Who, basically, stands accused7 I think, to begin with, the countries who don't have the courage to say and do what they believe And that's primarily the Western countries—who cave in to petty dictatorships and pander to expediency, who don't stand up for the principles that 30-odd years ago they fought for in a world war I can't blame the dictatorships, because they don't know better—their system doesn't allow them to do better Who stands accused7 Countries that voted in the United Nations to move the Palestinian Arab refugees m Gaza from decent housing provided by the government of Israel—at Israel's expense, incidentally—back to the hovels of the refugee camps, so that they can continue to be pawns in the hands of the Arab governments And the whole United Nations voted for that, except for Israel and the United States, Canada abstained Who stands accused7 The countries that in time of crisis, when discussing ridiculous one-sided, lopsided, biased resolutions in the various specialized UN agencies, abstain instead of taking a firm stand against the dictatorships and terrorists who constitute a majority in, say, the Commission on Human Rights Let me give you a few names Iraq, Libya, Syria, Uganda, ^ ugoslavia—these are the countries that deal with human rights in the United Nations What did Dante say The hottest fires in hell are reserved for those who in times of crisis remain neutral Well, that's a great part of the Western world today, I regret to say Samuels...

...ON THE EVE OF HIS DEPARTURE A Talk with Chaim Herzog by Cham Herzog returned to government service as Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations in September 1975, and will soon complete that assignment Born in Ireland, he emigrated to Palestine while still a youth in 1935, when his father, Dr Isaac Herzog, was appointed Chief Rabbi there He later attended the universities of Cambridge and London, joined the British Army at the outbreak of World War II, and then served with Israeli Military Intelligence (twice as its director?948-50, 1959-62) He was the first Military Governor of the West Bank of Jordan in 1967 Lawyer, diplomat, businessman, Majoi-General (Res ) in the IsiaelDefense Forces, Heizog was awarded a knighthood (KBE) in 1970 He has been a widely respected military and political commentator for Kol Ysrael and England's BBC, has written an internationally syndicated column and is the author of several books, including The War Of Atonement (1975) and the just published Who Stands Accused7 (Random House) In August, Ambassador Herzog wilt be succeeded at the UN by Yehuda Z Blum, Czechoslovakian- born professor of international law at Bai-Ilan University and Hebrew University Between meetings of the current special Genet al Assembly on Disarmament, he took time out to grant The New Leader an exclusive interview In his book-lined office at the Israeli Mission on Second Avenue in Manhattan, shirtsleeved, hot lemon tea at his elbow, he reflected on the questions that were put to him and had a few of his own Samuels...