Religion and the Schools

...The really fundamental point to me is whether a person is a better American because he believes in God...

...Does that proposition hold up...

...I think we ought to be aware, though, of some of the inquiries that have been made that show that there is no direct relationship between being religious and going to Sunday school, for instance, and being moral-that is, not being a delinquent...

...But I'm firmly convinced that teaching of a belief in God is so inherent in our tradition that, if it causes controversy, it may be because some people do not understand what is the essence of our American tradition and the essence of the basic culture in our civilization...

...Phenix: Well, my position is also that the teaching of moral and spiritual values in the public schools is very important...

...Phenix: Well, as I've indicated, I think they can...

...But do you want to speak, Dean Donnelly, about what we should expect of our teachers by way of religious commitment...

...Bromley: What can you say to that point, Dr...

...Sometimes we have struggled through some of our most difficult times and reached right decisions through controversy...

...and that the public school he a school in which all...

...Now I don't think we can say so flatly that ours is a religious nation...

...you should not wonder why some people maintain that the public school is Godless...

...I certainly think that it's a problem of the culture itself-the total culture must somehow get over its conflicts and its inner contradictions...

...That's my point...

...he has to find out some time in life that other people believe in God, and he shouldn't get an inferiority complex from that experience...

...Particularly among civic and religious organizations, there has been substantial controversy over the contents of this statement...

...Donnelly: Dr...

...That's why I object to the report being considered by the New York City Board of Education...

...I merely state that the tragedy of our day is this continuing trend toward secularism, and that it is vitally important, therefore, to teach a belief in God in the public schools, since our school children are the lifeline of democracy and the lifeline of our culture-which is a culture under God just as our laws are laws from God...

...Dean Donnelly...

...And one of the serious problems that's raised, and I'm not sure it's insurmountable, is simply that most teachers don't have the competence or the training to present different ideas of God effectively and fairly...

...I see that Dean Donnelly wants to argue at least one or two of these points...

...But it must be done in such a way that we do not violate the basic rights of disbelief of those who do not adopt a specifically religious view...

...Bromley: Would you answer that, Dr...

...There is no question of their competence to teach belief in God and dependence upon God and the moral law as constituted in the Ten Commandments...

...Doesn't a statement like this, which puts the weight of Government authority behind having teachers committed to a religion, whatever religion it may he, basically repudiate the fundamentally secular character of our civilization...

...Before coming to Fordham in 1942, he taught for a year at City College...

...But I am firmly convinced that the teaching of moral and spiritual values, with a theistic base, is a very important part of whatever solution is ultimately devised...

...Now will you close, please, Dr...

...After all, 40 per cent of our people, according to the latest statistics, do not have any official church membership...

...Bromley: Perhaps both of you will want to discuss what will be meant to the children by "God...

...and I'd like to come back to the two points just made by Dr...

...He can't be left out of the knowledge and the values taught in the public school...

...Bromley: What do you say about this, Dr...

...And I think that such a program as this certainly waits upon the time when teachers have had a chance, through work in teachers' training colleges, for a more adequate presentation of religious views and non-religious views...

...The Declaration of Independence certainly recognizes God as our Creator and as the source of our rights...

...1 think it's an educationally useful way of dealing with things, but it's not useful at the point where the arm of Government, where the power of Government officials takes one side against another side...

...But I do think there are systems of ethics and systems of morality in many cultures and that there is no necessary connection between believing God and being moral...

...Am I right or wrong about that, Dr...

...I might say I agree with Dean Donnelly that controversy is inevitable and that it is useful...

...I'm speaking as one who is within the church community and who believes that religion is important...

...I firmly believe that our institutions are inextricably bound up with religion, and the Supreme Court of the United States in 1952 went out of its way to point out the extent to which our institutions are bound up with religion...

...Author, Intelligible Religion...

...They should recognize objectively within the curriculum, in all of its parts, that there is a belief in God which some people hold, but that there are other ways of organizing life which do not depend upon this particular belief...

...I think that we have to put ourselves in the position of those who do not believe in God...

...from your standpoint, of course, that would be the case...

...That is to say, the public school has got to be organized in such a way that the non-believers and the believers have equal representation in the curriculum...

...It gives unequivocal authorization for the teaching of belief in God and recognition of our obligations to Him in the public school...

...It's especially good because it stresses the importance of moral and spiritual values...

...But I have a good many objections to it on other grounds, and I'd like to suggest four of them...

...Donnelly: With regard to the commitments of our teachers, there is no question in my mind that it is highly desirable that our teachers be religiously-committed people...

...Phenix...

...Dean Donnelly...

...whether they believe in God or whether they do not believe in God...

...It's one of the important things that must be done...

...you shouldn't ask questions like that...

...Phenix: I'm much interested in this report, and I think in many ways it's a very good one...

...there's room for improvement, but we can take everything step by step...

...Phenix...

...Ideals such as these, which are inherent in the American tradition and in the Judeo-Christian tradition, and dedication to these ideals in the public-school classroom can help to turn back the devastating tide of secularism which is so damaging in our day...

...I think it's terribly important that we he a people of many faiths-and yet one people...

...I merely say that it is highly desirable that as many of our teachers as possible be deeply religiously-committed people...

...We have to see how a statement like this affects them...

...And I would ask whether the First Amendment to the Constitution, which specifies that Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion, and the application of this to the states in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, does not indicate not only freedom to believe, but also freedom not to believe...

...To start the discussion, I'm going to ask each of our speakers to state his position...

...Philip Phenix, Associate Professor of Education at Teachers College, Columbia University...

...No one can quarrel with this last statement...

...I notice that the Guiding Statement says, "It is an incontrovertible fact that as a rule the American teacher is religious in character, in action and belief...

...This unmistakably clear instruction to teachers in the public schools of New York City is, therefore, a positive, salutary step toward fostering still further the ideals on which our country was founded, ideals which are the vitality and the inspiration of our way of life...

...As you well know, there's a letter to the editor in one of the papers practically every week saying that we would ha\e less juvenile delinquency if the children were taught religion not only in their homes and in their churches, but in the schools...

...The public schools teach the role of religion and encourage factual study about religion...

...If God is left out of the public school or if only passing lip-service is paid to Him...

...may find their home...

...But I would he the last one to assert that that's the simple answer...

...They need a directive of this nature to give them a free hand to inculcate that basic premise in our culture and in our tradition...

...Phenix...

...But first let me read a few quotations...

...Bromley: Doesn't this lead us to the question of whether teachers can effectively inculcate moral and spiritual values-something that is so important-without teaching belief in God and man's dependence on Him...

...Donnelly: Let us for a moment put ourselves in the position of thousands of school children in the public schools who believe in God, and who I assume you would not have taught a belief in God...

...Donnelly: I'd like to put my position this way, Mrs...

...And my last point is this: that the report seems to indicate that a teacher, to be a good teacher, ought to belong to a church or synagogue, or believe in God, and I think this is unfair to those teachers who are very good teachers but do not happen to share these beliefs...

...Dorothy Dunbar Bromley, moderator of WMCA's Report to the People...

...Phenix, since they're so critically important...

...Bromley: May I throw in a question here, please, gentlemen...

...or whether a person is not just as good an American if he's an atheist or a non-believer...

...But I also think it's terribly important that we don't make unbelievers second-class citizens...

...Donnelly: This guiding statement goes far beyond the recommendations of the National Education Association report issued in 1951...

...Understand...

...Since God is our Creator and our ultimate destiny, and since belief in Him is the core of our culture...

...There may be many religious people and there arc many religious people in this country, hut we are officially a secular nation...

...Phenix...

...Its adoption would be a big step in the right direction...

...I think one might even show that there would be some cases where the wrong kind of teaching of belief in God might actually help delinquency along, that is, it might tend to make young people more delinquent...

...Do you believe, Dean Donnelly, that that's a big argument for the teaching of a belief in God and a dependence upon God...

...There are many people for whom purely human interests-health, safety, productivity, and so forth-can justify these moral and spiritual values...

...Neither is there any question that he can profit...

...I do not say that there must be a religious test for teachers in our schools...

...Phenix...

...Donnelly: From my point of view, and I think from the point of view of any kind of thorough analysis of the making of the United States and all our basic constitutional documents, it is unmistakably clear that we are a religious people despite the fact that there are many citizens in our country who do not believe in God...

...Is the teacher simply to beat the pupil down and say, "Well, of course, He exists...

...This Guiding Statement is good...

...Phenix: Well, admittedly, the Declaration of Independence mentions God-but I would come back to the Constitution...

...The matter is being widely discussed because of a "Guiding Statement for Teachers and Supervisors on Moral and Spiritual Values," which has been adopted by the New York City Board of Superintendents but is still under consideration by the Board of Education...

...Young people must be made to feel more secure in a great variety of ways, to feel wanted, to feel that they belong...

...But from the public standpoint, is that the case...

...Since the question is so important, I invited two outstanding educators, who disagree on a fundamental aspect of this report, to present their views...

...So I think it's a much bigger problem...

...If you allow God to be left out, you run the risk of permitting the public school to become an anti-religious factor in the community-a factor which undermines our culture and our way of life...

...Phenix, I've been asked questions like that in a public-school classroom, and I never found them difficult, nor did I find them embarrassing...

...I agree with Dean Donnelly on that point...

...It points out that the public schools teach the moral code and identify God as the ultimate source of natural and moral law...

...Are there not different concepts of God held by the different religious bodies...

...I do not say that all our teachers must be religiously-committed people...

...This is the kind of broad-gauge solution we must have for the problem of juvenile delinquency...

...Bromley: That brings us to the question about what the teachers should believe...

...Obviously, home problems, problems of our total culture, all enter into this picture...

...Would you say that he didn't belong within the public school or that the teacher should not discuss the question with him-or that the teacher should simply tell him he's wrong in questioning this...

...Phenix: But what would you do with the student who wanted to question the belief in God...

...Bromley: Gentlemen, could we please go on to this question: Is or isn't there logic to the claim made by some civic groups that the adoption of this Guiding Statement would introduce divisive religious controversy into our public schools...

...Only in that way can we perpetuate the culture which is ours...

...I think all of us know people who are extraordinarily conscientious, who are highly ethical in their conduct and who do not believe in God...

...Now a layman, he is a member of the Protestant Episcopal Church...

...Phenix: Well, I think it's a terribly complicated problem, too, and I don't think there is any single answer to it...

...Donnelly: I believe that if there were more emphasis on moral and spiritual values in the public school, if there were more attention given to teaching a belief in God and our responsibilities under God, that would be a contribution toward solving this vast problem of juvenile delinquency...

...specialist in the philosophy of education and the relation between education and religion...

...Phenix: You are certainly right about that...

...Or suppose another student wanted to raise another question as to whether or not God exists...

...It also says, "The public schools encourage the belief in God, recognizing the simple fact that ours is a religious nation...

...I'm not saying that the secular approach, or the non-religious approach, is the only one...

...They teach the moral code and identify God as the ultimate source of the natural and moral law...

...And suppose that a student raised in class the question, "Which of these views is correct...

...So, in accordance with this directive, a teacher is free to teach that God exists, that God is the source of the inalienable rights of man which our forefathers proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence, that all men are equal under God, that human life is sacred, and that man is responsible to the moral law as formulated in the Ten Commandments...

...Phenix...

...Donnelly: I would say, first of all, that there is always controversy and that controversy is good within limits...

...Suppose there was one view of God as the impersonal force of the universe and another as a personal father...

...Many people in this country do not believe in God-or simply do not care about religious questions...

...That is the curse of our time, that we are tending in that direction...

...I would say that, although the Declaration of Independence and several other documents do mention God, the basic document is the Federal Constitution and this does not mention God and, as a matter of fact, explicitly separates Church and State...

...Bromley: Dr...

...They have to take account of the fact that, for many, belief in God is an important element in their moral and spiritual life...

...I've never seen any difficulty there...

...Bromley: Thank you...

...Bromley: There has been a good deal of talk recently about the public schools and religion-a word, of course, which means different things to different people...

...What is the right of this vast group since we are so solicitous about the right of a minority...

...Well, those are four objections that I feel toward this report...

...Donnelly: I would like to challenge your statement that our civilization is a secular one...

...Dean Donnelly...

...My third point is that moral and spiritual values do not, as this report indicates, necessarily rest upon belief in God...

...Phenix, will you take over now, please, and give us your views of this problem...

...Now my second question would be this: whether, by historical right, the belief in God is a cornerstone of our nation...

...only in that way can we enable our students to reach the proper fulfilment of their capacities and to have a proper understanding of not only their temporal destiny but also their eternal destiny...

...Dean Donnelly...

...Phenix: Well, then, would you say, Dean Donnelly, that there are no fundamental differences in interpretation...

...Donnelly: Yes...

...Formerly an Army chaplain, and chaplain at Carleton College, Minnesota, he studied at Union Theological Seminary...

...After all, one of the great contributions of American civilization has been that we are a secular nation...

...Phenix: Dean Donnelly, isn't that a particular point of view...

...I think we're looking for difficulties, perhaps too assiduously, in solving this problem...

...That is a very large minority...

...Acknowledgement of Him and of our obligations to Him must be positive and definite every day and in every proper way in the public-school classroom...

...Therefore, what should the public schools do...

...That is...

...And the question I would ask would be whether such people are any less American than the 60 per cent who do belong to churches...

...And it's very specific in showing the ways in which they may be introduced in the various parts of the curriculum...

...Bromley: 1 hope we'll have time...

...Bromley: Thank you...

...Then it goes on to say that he should "exemplify moral and spiritual values...

...Donnelly: As to the competence of our teachers to teach a belief in God, I don't know the statistics but I am absolutely sure that there are thousands upon thousands of teachers in the public schools who are most highly and most fervently committed to a belief in God...

...Donnelly: There is no question that he has as much right in the public schools as anyone else...

...The report says...

...Bromley...

...Bromley: Before we close, I'd like to have each of you make any last point you wish or sum up your position...

...And I don't see how we can say to such people that they have an inadequate basis for their morality...

...Phenix: I certainly think that the public schools-and this is recognized in this report-have to take account of the fact that people do believe in God...

...That's part of the growing-up to which we're all subjected...

...He belongs to a church or synagogue...

...It's a simple matter for a teacher to recognize his limitations once he steps into the area of creed and to refer his pupil to his own minister, priest or rabbi...

...The statement emphasizes the fact that belief in and dependence upon Almighty God was and is the cornerstone of our nation-and was and is the heart of the Hebraic-Christian tradition...