Colombia - Turbay & M-19 View Betancur
Political forces in Colombia have been developing rapidly since the mid-1970s, which saw both the beginning of the coffee, marijuana and cocaine bonanza and the rise of the guerrilla...
...We hope to construct a new popular and democratic bloc that will lead to the reorganization of the state...
...It is clear to us that organizing a political party or a movement is something more complex...
...Truly destroyed...
...But I hope it is also clear that revolutions occur irrespective of whether a country is highly developed or less developed...
...We regarded crimes like the bank hold-ups, the assaults on factories, as the work of common criminals...
...We are calling for the state to be pluralist and democratic...
...Having legally established a force the people will have to go out and defend that force...
...What guarantees are there that when thatsituation arrives, and new kinds of elections are held, that the structures you propose will not fall again under the control of the old guard...
...Does this mean you think subversives and other opposition forces should be excluded from political participation while the two tradition 3 al parties continue to share power...
...The strongest of these appear to be the "new nationalists" headed by Conservative president Belisario Betancur, on the one hand, and the opposition forces, especially the M-19, on the other...
...That is, it is not just a group of guerrillas, but rather in the development of a strategy of war that it was necessary to call for the creation of a popular army...
...If we succeed in carrying out our proposal, popular participation will take care of everything...
...On the subordinate level, of course, there may be some failure in discipline that could be punished...
...But we are not afraid of tactical alliances...
...They in turn appoint mayors...
...Turbay, do you think that Colombia's recent militarization of the Carribbean will deter the rise of guerrilla movements?* The guerri...the subversives can be detained insofar as we effectively control our own borders and do not permit the penetration of more arms to strengthen them...
...I believe that the institutions can come to ruin at any moment if there is no great awareness of the dangers threatening...
...JanFeb 1983 But in spite of your policies, insecurity continued...
...To defend the institutions under the protection of which all forces have access to power...
...Street assassinations continued and the Army is accused of many of them...
...Those who come to power democratically will remain in power because here there are professional armed forces...
...In some ways this proposal coincides with one made by the Conservative Party...
...And security does not improve under a regime which acts with disregard for the law [impunidad], but under a regime of justice, in which whoever violates the law is actually condemned socially...
...That is why we realized that we were capable of awakening a civil mobilization...
...As commander in chief of the armed forces for four years, I do not accept that...
...They are not among the people, or in the nationalistic and democratic opposition...
...Peace can only be achieved through war...
...But we grew, we made ourselves into a recognized political force...
...In the second interview, Alfonso Yaqui, member of the Political Command of the M-1 9, talks about how the organization has established itself as a political force, for the first time advancing the struggle in Colombia beyond simply guerrilla warfare...
...were taken from their houses and assassinated in the streets...
...The upsurge in popular political activity in turn has required the government to take even more extreme steps to maintain control of public order, giving even greater power to the Army...
...People *See "Colombia-Another Threat in the Caribbean?' NACLA Reporton the Americas (Sept/Oct 1982...
...I gave them the role the Constitution indicates, which is to maintain public order...
...They could then establish themselves as a political party after amnesty-a privileged party, with their own army...
...But at that time the violence had typically national characteristics: it was Conservatives and Liberals confronting each other, whereas now it is simply the government versus the marxists...
...Once we have amnesty we have to renegotiate the conditions of the democratic opening so that there can be peace...
...Echele pueblo...
...The May-June issue of the NACLA Report will be devoted to Colombia...
...On the other hand it would be extremist on our part to say that Colombia is ripe for a model of state organization of the traditional international socialist type, where there is one state, one party...
...Make the process more participatory...
...This suggests a process from the bottom up: mayors by popular election, governors by popular election,**and at a lower level the formation of local administrative boards of popular origin...
...Then you think the Colombian guerrilla problem is fundamentally a question of arms...
...The government did not respond...
...For example, the most serious thing that has happened to the country politically was the constitution of the National Front in 1958...
...Could it be said that he represents the doctrine of the traditional Conservative Party...
...These were eminently urban actions, with national and international impact and significance...
...The history of our republic is the history of our innumerable civil wars...
...Julio Csar Turbay Ayala Dr...
...These interviews, excerpted and edited, present two views on *None did so, stating that the question was not about guns but about social transformation, and calling for an open national dialogue...
...A month and a half later, Congress approved the fifth and most recent amnesty for Colombian guerrillas, under which about 400 political prisoners were released along with an offer to the guerrillas to come above ground and surrrender their weapons.* In the first interview, former president Turbay talks about amnesty and its effects, saying that it represents a victory for the guerrillas and that it can lead to a "collapse" of Colombian democracy...
...People lived in a climate of terror...
...What we are saying to Belisario Betancur is that the missing ingredient is his process of reorganizing the state is the people...
...Because when I took office they did not give me a chance...
...This is impossible with a people that has never participated...
...Political forces in Colombia have been developing rapidly since the mid-1970s, which saw both the beginning of the coffee, marijuana and cocaine bonanza and the rise of the guerrilla movement...
...Yes, as minister of foreign affairs [in 1959] it was my duty to sign the decree that granted amnesty so that the country could be pacified...
...First, we plan to transform the presidency into a kind of republican parliamentarianism, which means that the head of state is not the head of government...
...What it really means is the establishment of a new historical, political and social bloc...
...So I was notified that they did not want to negotiate with me...
...How do you think that while more than ten men from the High Command were in jail for four years the plan developed anyway...
...We are calling for the establishment of a new decision-making process...
...My opinion is that we must try to better distribute the wealth, stimulate development, bring it to all regions...
...It is not a problem of social inequalities...
...36 NACLA Associate Ramon Jimeno interviewed both old and new during the first week of October 1982 (see NACLA News...
...Today all forces other than the Liberal and Conservative Parties have been extinguished, drowned by their exclusion from the National Front...
...Given the country's troubles, do you not think the most recent And why could amnesty be given to the Liberal guerrillas and should not be given to the guerrillas of today...
...Jan/Feb 1983 The image of our country as a democratic republic is completely false...
...We greatly restricted the capacity for subversion, but did not restrict liberty...
...Fortunately, this is no longer my responsibility...
...Will the present national-populist government of Belisario Betancur also be incorporated into the new power bloc...
...And if they do...
...The M-19 could potentially bring together broad sectors of the population, effectively integrating them into the political process for the first time...
...The other part to some degree is terrorism...
...Something of this is going on with the Colombian Communist Party, with FARC as their armed branch...
...No, in every country there is a breeding place for inequality...
...It is one of the essential causes...
...before it was parties...
...Now it is systems that are confronting each other...
...Then the cause of insecurity is armed political insurrection...
...Why didn't you initiate a dialogue with the guerillas as Betancur is doing...
...This was a pact between Liberals and Conservatives which determined that only they could take part in government...
...And what of the political support that M-19 is earning, what is it...
...These problems clearly are more likely to create a favorable climate to revolution in countries that suffer misery than in those not suffering misery...
...When I assumed office I found a declaration on my desk that stated: "There can be no agreement with you...
...For example, the amnesty that was proposed to me stated that first the prisoners should be released, and afterward those who were involved in armed struggle would give up...
...We [M-1 9] will not resolve this problem with words but with bullets...
...But why then when you began your presidency did you initiate a policy of repression (mano dura...
...What future do you see for Colombian political institutions...
...I know that when a country's democratic alternative is nonexistent and the 37update * update . update update o o Two M-19 commandos with members of the Interamerican Commission of Human Rights in the Dominican Embassy, 1980...
...So when people ask for security, you cannot give them relaxation...
...Our first action was to recover Bolivar's sword for the people,* as a symbol of liberty...
...We think that a great civil storm has to be created, that is a broad coalition around one political force...
...But if through political-nilitary action we succeed in becoming a widely supported movement, the plan to establish the people's army will be furthered...
...Contrary to what happened to earlier movements which only confronted the state's military apparatus, the Army, our actions always had a clear political objective-to force the government to face the problems of the country and seek popular support...
...M-1 9 has been destroyed several times...
...If we were simply guerrillas out there in the southern jungles of the country, hidden away, we would not be the problem that we represent today...
...At present we feel that the development of a people's war is still a task for a vanguard...
...Alfonso Yaqui Let's talk a little about the development of the movement...
...i amnesty will help pacify the coun% try...
...And when military confrontation is the only alternative, what strategy do you see for the people's army, taking into account Colombia's diverse geography...
...I wanted to avoid expansion of the subversive movements under the shelter of amnesty, as some crimes really cannot be pardoned without affecting society...
...empowered by the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party to defend their own institutions...
...First, the traditional parties-the Liberals and Conservatives-have experienced high electoral abstention rates, accentuating the decline of their electoral "legitimacy...
...That implies arming the people and a direct confrontation with the military apparatus of the state...
...For us, politicalmilitary action became a form of political participation...
...And if it becomes necessary to defend the democratic conditions which are planned by Betancur's government with arms, this would be consistent with our position as democrats...
...The people have never known authentic democratic participation...
...It is a strategy that M-19 is implementing in Colombia for the first time...
...So our first problem is to reorganize the state administration...
...You can make peace with one sector, with those sectors that accept the amnesty, but others immediately arise with more force, knowing from the start that precedents are set for another future amnesty-even when it is stated that there will be no amnesty to those who commit the same crimes...
...Of arms, yes...
...We can have no illusions about this...
...It seems to me that the country needs a climate of harmony, which is not the same as a climate of lawlessness...
...Betancur's political opening...
...I did not give the military such a large role...
...Betancur is under pressure from the Army and conservative wings of both parties, and the guerrillas' rejection, which was expected, could be the justification for a new era of bloody repression...
...I am not against giving amnesty to the guerrillas...
...That is not to say that [inequality] leads necessarily to armed revolution...
...When amnesties were worked out in the past, did you ever participate in the negotiations...
...When I took office the Colombian people were clamoring for security, because insecurity reigned...
...The government and guerrillas both know that the guerrillas' struggle does not originate or end with the release of their political prisoners...
...Why the devil are we in existence...
...Turbay-a Liberal-launched a wide campaign of severe political repression, which he justified by the need for "national security...
...We succeeded in calming down the situation considerably and checking the growing power of the guerrillas...
...NACLA Reportupdate * update * update e update Former Colombian president Julio Cesar Turbay Ayala in 1982...
...In Colombia new political forces are beginning to gain power...
...We have told the President of the Republic that the enemies of his government are on his right...
...And there was great popular participation, relative of course to the clandestine nature of our movement...
...We are not calling for the establishment of a new political party...
...There are some very serious social factors that will prevent complete pacification...
...Second, several new political alternatives have appeared on the scene, representing sectors of the population that have grown out of the economic transformation of Colombian society in the 1970s...
...These actions also inspired a political-military option with a larger conception of what must be done...
...Look at the phenomenon of Betancur: could anyone state that Betancur is Conservative...
...What I want is that amnesty strengthens peace and not subversion...
...That is why for us peace is not only amnesty...
...Then came the seizure of thousands of arms from Colombia's most important military garrison, and afterward the occu*In 1975, after much preparatory publicity, the M-19 took Simon Bollvar's sword from the Bolivar museum in Bogota...
...Here what we need is an authentic republican revolution like the French revolutioni **Governors are now appointed by the President...
...What is taking place is a discussion of how political and social change will come about in the Colombia of the 1980s, who may participate in the debate and under what rules...
...two alternatives that exist in the case of Colombia (Liberal Party and Conservative Party) are discredited, then a collapse will come...
...What we are calling for is the establishment of a nationalist movement, consistently democratic, in which the country's social forces are realigned...
...Why did you give the military such a large role in your government...
...Meanwhile, the old guard refuses to accept new forces on the political scene...
...The construction of a people's army also implies the formation of a NIA Reportupdate * update . update . update force whose objective is the conquest of political territory...
...pation of the Embassy of the Dominican Republic...
...What happened is that we had a common understanding of the policy that I established as president...
...They presented M-19 as a political force to be reckoned with, one which the state was forced to recognize as an opposition force...
...It now turns out that these are political crimes tied up with armed insurrection...
...But of the armies of Latin America, the Colombian Army is today the most genuinely professional-witness the fact that here there is no danger of uprisings in the garrisons, as in other democracies...
...Following this line of thought we would have to conclude that peace is only a benefit for the rich, and that the poor countries are condemned to armed confrontation and this is not my opinion...
...The best thing that could happen to an armed group is that they receive amnesty without having to give up their weapons...
...Such an amnesty would strengthen subversion, because the freed prisoners would rejoin [the guerrilla camps...
...Amnesty is only a bridge...
...Former president Julio Cesar Turbay Ayala, who governed between 1978 and 1982, is one of the best examples...
...That is the main problem: the democratic opening...
...What I do not believe is that the people who join the new political movements enjoy the support of public opinion...
Vol. 17 • January 1983 • No. 1
