Interview with Mario Firmenich
The following document is part of a longer interview conducted with Mario Eduardo Firmenich in Argentina during July 1976 and released for publication in November. Firmenich is the Secretary...
...This is a basic, essentially idelogical premise of the revolutionary process...
...In our country the State deficit is one of the principal causes of inflation, for the simple reason that the deficit is normally covered through the printing of unbacked currency...
...Of the approximately US$10,000,000,000 foreign debt, $2 billion must he paid this year...
...This [capital] drain is inherent in dependency...
...The fiscal deficit is of serious concern to the Military Junta which has developed a plan for laying off 300,000 State employees...
...This is absolutely false...
...There are also contradictions within the working class whose most dynamic sector is the industrial proletariat, particularly that sector which works in the large monopoly industries-those sectors with the highest level of concentration and technological development...
...We have chosen two long excerpts for inclusion in this issue...
...We must begin by clarifying the dialectical relationship which exists between the "conditioning" element ["el condicionante", i.e., the subjective element] and the "determining" element ["el determinante", i.e., the objective element...
...This, then, is our role, the role we have always played, but which today has acquired greater importance because of the necessity for a qualitative leap forward...
...Question: Is the Montonero's characterization of the working class as the only class that can overcome the limitations of dependent capitalism a new formulation...
...NACLA would like to thank Latin America (London) for its cooperation in helping us obtain this interview...
...When these captial reserves disappeared, the structural faults within the system became evident...
...We know what it meant in the past and the worker also knows...
...The second is that to scientifically analyse any concrete economic reality, we must have a global vision of the state of international capitalism...
...Middle level or tactical leadership structures [of each of the movement's branches* *] were controlled by the pro-imperialist bureaucracy...
...Thus, we have a high level of 'urban development: 80% of our population lives in the cities...
...The last person who could maintain a certain level of unity and popular hope was Per6n himself...
...Martinez de Hoz may be able to defer payment until 1978 or 1979, but at the cost of an additional burden in interest...
...Because the justicialist doctrine, while clearly not socialist, does greatly undercut capitalism...
...The contradictions within Peronism determined the movement's eventual rupture and decline, because the "third position" had itself already reached its natural limits...
...The advances from Peronism represent a qualitative leap, from Peronism to the Montoneros...
...In other words, alliances among the people such as the worker-peasant alliance, become in our case an alliance between the working class and the people, fundamentally the urban sectors, the non-worker salaried employees, the independent workers, the intellectuals, the petty bourgeoisie, etc., in addition to the peasant sectors who in our case are not as important a force as they have been in other revolutionary processes...
...This is why a leap is20 needed-an ideological leap in the strategy [for taking] power, and a leap in the organization's structure...
...This expression contained the limitations of Peronism itself: the above described limitations in doctrine and organization, etc...
...For this reason, the workers in the automobile plants constitute the vanguard of the trade union movement...
...Peronism has therefore been, at a particular moment in the development of the revolutionary process, the expression of popular revolutionary nationalism...
...We can synthesize the state of capitalism in Argentina in the followng manner: presently, the system has reached its limits in terms of the development of the productive forces...
...This will continue to be the way to advance toward socialism in Argentina...
...The capital was not forthcoming and the plan failed much more quickly than in 1948...
...The second section presents an analysis of the current capitalist crisis in Argentina...
...Other sectors, such as the peasants and the students, were unrepresented...
...This N N 0 I I :1 I Economy Minister Emillio Mondelli attenbpts to reduce the fiscal deficit th-rough "shock" measures.- -22 penetration took the form of participation in the Latin American Free Trade Association [LAFTA], which implied dissolving tariff barriers within the continent so that goods which could be produced advantageously in one country could count on a market throughout the hemisphere...
...A broad-based distribution policy diminishes surplus value and assumes that the capitalists' profits will nevertheless be maintained through the expansion of the market...
...When he left the scene, the crisis of Peronism began to unfold...
...But the failure of pro-imperialist politics within Peronism also became evident, basically through the experience of Isabel Per6n's government...
...In 1973 the crisis was much sharper...
...The natural crisis in dependent capitalism in Argentina has been sharpened by two new elements...
...In terms of the State's activity, we must consider the fiscal deficit...
...One can see the productive infrastructure's dependence on the monopolies in its reliance on a series of imports which range from technology and critical inputs to raw materials...
...This "Left" characterizes Per6n as a leader of the bourgeoisie...
...In order to respond, it is necessary to take political factors into account...
...Inflation in international prices is transferred to the national economy through the importation of critical inputs...
...In attempting to cover up unemployment they incorporate massive numbers of people into the State bureaucracy...
...The other factors [to consider] are the political crisis which arose during the Peronist campaign for access to the government, the selling-out of the [labor] bureaucracy, the mobilization of the masses and the presence of our organization...
...In our country we have, on the one hand, foreign monopoly capital and, on the other, small and medium-sized national industrial capital, in addition to the State which is one of the principal employers...
...It was at this point that we said that there was a crisis of identity...
...This phenomenon is inherent to the deformations of dependent capitalism: the accumulation of the surplus produced is not used for the reproduction of the system, but rather flows toward the metropolitan headquarters of the monopolies...
...The personal element disappeared with Per6n's death, and the failure of Isabel Per6n's government ruled out any possibility of a political inheritance...
...Once in office, the failure of the justicialist doctrine and its inability to overcome the conditions of dependency were clearly demonstrated...
...These elements are still alive and allow us to make this qualitative leap even in the midst of the struggle against the anti-popular Armed Forces...
...Obtaining credit to pay the amount due this year and maintaining the same debt along with the new interest...
...Government newspapers are speaking of his "great financial success...
...Question: In many of their documents, the Montoneros have held Per6n responsible for failing to take advantage of the possibilities that opened up in March 1973...
...But to arrive at a correct political line it is not enough to speak of the working class in general...
...1955 military coup nor would they have been the last sector to support Per6n during and after the period of his return to power...
...Because of the crisis in dependent capitalism, the crisis in world capitalism and the political situation within the country...
...but being a Montonero represents continuity with having been a Peronist...
...The determining element in the construction of socialism-in overcoming the limits in the development of the productive forces, in taking power-is the working class, given the dialectic of its internal laws, or, more exactly, the people, the working class and, within the working class, the sectors we have mentioned...
...Firmenich: Clearly not...
...Firmenich: The belief that a crisis itself could lead to the fall of the capitalist system often underlies a statement that a given crisis is "definitive...
...This is the qualitative leap in Peronism's political identity...
...It has also aggravated the situation in the external sector, principally the foreign debt...
...For this reason, this sector of the working class experiences the most collective involvement in the production process and most directly confronts the contradictions with imperialism within the structures of the productive apparatus itself...
...There is no such thing as a "final" capitalist crisis unless the system is overthrown...
...But] LAFTA failed and these factories (Ford, General Motors, IKA Renault, Fiat, Peugot, Chrysler) are competing among themselves for the small national market...
...Why is foreign investment not forthcoming...
...Martinez de Hoz is simply seeking to refinance the debt...
...The crisis in each one of these sectors determines the nature and revolutionary potential of the salaried sectors linked to them...
...Firmenich is the Secretary General of the Partido Montonero...
...And, given one-man leadership and the fact that Per6n was 78 years old, any change in this was impossible...
...We have already stated that by 1973 Peronism had reached its limits...
...This bureaucracy grew up as a dependent subproduct of imperialist penetration and assumed the role of business agent for the large capitalists...
...Question: Returning to the theme of identity...
...And there is no other way...
...The general discontent that this will generate will sooner or later provoke this sector to mobilize...
...The final conflict was the result of a highly important event-Per6n's entrance into the government...
...But in terms of anything really meaningful-that is new investment directed toward the development of the productive forces to mitigate the chronic crisis-he has gotten practically nothing...
...This is not true and the system only functioned between 1946 and 1952 due to the State's large monetary reserves which helped finance both the bourgeoisie's development and the working class' consumption...
...These measures condition the reactions of the different sectors of the working class, reactions which must be reflected in our political line and in the determination of priorities on the trade union level...
...Cafiero, Isabel Per6n's minister, was able to defer the debt from 1975 until 1976...
...In the course of history it will clearly acquire different names, but this essence will always be present...
...We can briefly mention the following sectors: the automobile industry (foreign monopoly capital) with its particular crisis...
...Nor can they grow through concentration since it is unthinkable that Ford could absorb General Motors...
...For it is on the basis of this essential identity that the experience of the Peronist masses-the struggle against foreign capital, [imperialist] political/ideological penetration, the local capitalists associated with imperialism, the oligarchy, and the pro-imperialist bureaucracy-has been developed...
...The organization, the party, takes on an external role as a conditioning element...
...This, as we have seen, led to an increase in imports, a rise in the foreign debt, and a higher overall level of dependency without the accumulation of necessary capital...
...Hence the importance we give them in our trade union work...
...Peronism will make a leap in identity but it will not cease to have been Peronism...
...Then there is our organization, our party...
...One section addresses the Montonero's history, particularly as regards its analysis of Peronism and its relation to the Peronist masses...
...Firmenich: The great successes that these newspapers speak of are mere propaganda...
...it contributed to the 1958 economic crisis...
...When the bourgeoisie no longer had State capital at its disposal, it had to increase the exploitation of labor...
...This situation does not allow for sufficiently high [profit] margins for the monopolies which are naturally seeking to transfer capital and profits produced by the national [Argentine] labor force to their metropolitan headquarters...
...But a leap in terms of identity is not a change in identity...
...While in 1946 (when Per6n first came to power) the State had US$6,000,000,000 at its disposal, in 1973 (when Peronism returned to the government) the foreign debt had reached US$6,000,000,000...
...This appeared to develop the productive forces because it...
...These policies were followed during the Radical government of 1963-66 and to a much greater extent during the last Peronist government, particularly under Isabel Per6n when inflation reached 700...
...This is brought about by way of financial mechanisms designed to transfer capital surplus to the headquarters of the monopolies through the payment of patents or royalties...
...small and middle-sized industry (the national bourgeoisie...
...Because within the context of the Argentine process, the only way to become the vanguard of the working class and the people is to have been Peronist...
...In other words, this also brought the dependent capitalist system into a state of extreme crisis...
...After the coup, Economic Minister Martinez de Hoz directly adopted the economic policy of the monopolies-the well known prescriptions of the International Monetary Fund...
...We know that within the dependent capitalist system, it is possible to artificially expand the productive forces through foreign investment...
...We must therefore deepen our study of this question...
...In other words, he adopted a policy of recession geared toward stopping inflation, pushing the crisis on to the backs of the working class by means of wage freezes, the abolition of social legislation and the right to strike, and simply through high unemployment...
...The State could no longer finance the bourgeoisie and the working class' consumption...
...The Peronist movement was structurally composed of four branches: Labor, Political, Youth and Women...
...The fiscal deficit always increases considerably under those governments which, within the context of dependent capitalism, attempt to implement some sort of [more progressive] distribution policy...
...This is the reason for the crisis in the automobile industry, a crisis which, as we have seen, is inherent in the principal form which imperialist control takes in the country...
...the agro-livestock sector (the landed oligarchy...
...What is new is the crisis of dependent capitalism in Argentina and the importance of the working class' role within this new situation...
...We must analyse the general issue of Peronism, what it has meant and what it signifies today within the Argentine revolutionary process...
...The national economy is affected by the phenomenon of hyperinflation which has led to price controls and in turn to recession...
...This explains why these plants were located in C6rdoba, in the center of the country...
...a change in the determination, clearly, of political identiy...
...Naturally not...
...It is this political and economic instability which discourages the foreign capital investment which could stimulate the artificial expansion of the productive forces...
...This, on the other hand, determines the particular behavior of that part of the working class which is linked to this sector...
...Armed struggle, propaganda, organization and all the activities that the party develops on the basis of the working class in particular are forms of conditioning...
...Question: What revolutionary elements contained in the Peronist experience now allow this leap in identity...
...Our organization, which has its roots in Peronism and which is the "conditioning" element which will lead to the qualitative leap, will naturally determine the new character of this identity...
...Firmenich: We must make a distinction here: a bourgeois leader is one thing and a leader of the bourgeoisie another...
...This is our process...
...We think that there will be a leap in identity...
...From a social perspective, we must keep in mind the existence of contradictions within the working class, and within the people as a whole, because Peronism is not only a form of expression for the working class but also for the people as a whole...
...This is the ongoing process of the working class...
...What does being a Peronist mean to the future of a worker...
...Firmenich: The problem is the following: in general, all revolutionary processes in the world to date have occurred within feudal, semi-feudal or backward capitalist economies, for the most part in dependent or colonial countries...
...Why do you say that the Peronist political identity is in crisis...
...Another sector to consider is that of the state employees whose situation is linked up with the fiscal deficit...
...Naturally, this production was not directed toward the small C6rdoba market nor toward the larger Buenos Aires market...
...Peronism is and has historically been an expression of this political alliance which in our country [plays the role of] the worker-peasant alliance...
...On the other hand, after three years of government, the limitations of the justicialist doctrine had become evident...
...Question: The Economic Minister has recently returned from a tour of the United States and will shortly leave for Europe...
...This is because justicialism's concept of the expansion of the productive forces is based on the expansion of consumption and not on a rise in surplus value...
...What truth is there in this...
...and the steel sector...
...For this reason, a rise in production in the dependent capitalist system implies a rise in the foreign debt and not an increase in capital investment within the country...
...In 1958, the automobile industry was set up in the country...
...The particular case of the crisis in the automobile industry creates a special situation for large sectors of the national industry...
...In 1973 we revised the characterization and in 1974 we formulated a self criticism...
...Recession on a world scale leads to a reduction in consumption which, in turn, freezes the market for traditional exports such as beef and grain...
...As the State could no longer play the role of provider, the system went into crisis and the imperialist offensive- along with the limitations of the Peronist program, led to the 1955 coup...
...Do you agree with the non-Peronist Left which characterizes Per6n as a leader of the bourgeoisie...
...Does this signify a change in the political identity of the Montoneros and the Peronist masses...
...This has occurred under the rubric of a political identity which was called Peronism and Which will now change its name and some of its content but not its essence which is popular revolutionary nationalism...
...The crisis in this sector affects industries such as glass, plastics, rubber, chemicals, light metals, etc...
...Was his ideology socialist...
...But in this process we neither have to cease having been Peronist, nor deny that we have been Peronist, nor criticize ourselves for having been Peronists...
...In our country, imperialist domination has resulted in a high level of dependent capitalist development...
...It was for this reason that Per6n desperately sought an opening through international trade and aid...
...This means that it is no longer able to accumulate the surplus necessary for its own reproduction...
...These contradictions are linked to the type of capital on which different sectors of the class depend...
...One is the world crisis which is manifested as inflation and recession and which is then linked into the national crisis...
...But there will be no change as far as our popular revolutionary nationalism is concerned...
...The revolutionary position came into contradiction with the other sectors of the Peronist movement and acquired an identity of its own...
...In other words, we do not consider Per6n a leader of the bourgeoisie...
...Contradictions exist between the working class and salaried sectors who are not workers, as well as between these two sectors and the petty bourgeoisie...
...This, in turn, increases the deficit, the printing of money and inflation...
...Firmenich: We said this because Peronism was based on two assumptions: one was the presence and leadership of Per6n, and the other was the justicialist doctrine...
...In the final analysis, the crisis of Peronism grew out of the movment's origins: the pro-imperialist sectors developed first and the revolutionary sectors later...
...All this occured in the past but it does not offer possibilities for the future because Per6n no longer exists...
...It was impossible to further the development of the productive forces or to strengthen the popular forces on the basis of the "third position" ideology.* It was impossible for either the working class or the bourgeoisie to increase their power and their development within the country...
...The automobile industry is so important to the country-to the point where its crisis is transferred to the rest of the economy-due to the distortions inherent in dependent capitalism...
...Essentially, this characterization was erroneous: Per6n was not a socialist leader...
...We said that this was evident from the movement's doctrine or ideology...
...This does not mean, however, that he was a leader of the bourgeoisie, a conclusion which would deny the history of the Peronist struggle...
...In the final analysis, his "third position," by not calling for socialism, can be reduced to bourgeois ideology...
...THE CAPITALIST CRISIS IN ARGENTINA Question: Is it your opinion that the present crisis of dependent capitalism in Argentina is definitive...
...The working class was dominant due to its ideology which was generally expressed through the party or the vanguard sector...
...But what is fundamentally different today...
...Peronism signified an19 Juan Domingo Peron advance of the popular struggle between 1945 and 1955, an advance during the period of the Peronist Resistance, and lastly during the struggles against the Ongania and Lanusse dictatorships...
...Thus, they have been termed worker-peasant revolutions although in reality they were basically peasant revolutions which, in the absence of a developed working class, included only small sectors of workers...
...And what does this consist of...
...This is the first point we should keep in mind...
...I1 and other internal Montonero documents it is suggested that Peronism has reached its natural limits...
...Thus, Per6n was not a leader of the bourgeoisie because his policies neither guaranteed nor permitted the expansion of that class...
...For this reason, and although this sector of the class, because of its role in the productive process, does not have a very high level of organization and militance, we must carefully predict the possibility of these conflicts in our immediate plans...
...Neither did Peronism's rank and file structures allow for popular participation in the various movement branches...
...Today even foreign investment is not forthcoming because it is not possible to even artificially develop the productive forces...
...He sought it from the Chinese, the Arabs, the Soviets, the Yankees and the Europeans-from anyone who would finance him...
...Let us briefly analyse these "successes...
...21 produced growth in the automobile industry and in subsidiary industries...
...If this had been the case throughout the development of Peronism, the bourgeoisie would not have stood for the * Peron adhered to the belief that Argentina could provide a "third position" in the world, neither capitalist nor socialist...
...This is due, for the most part, to the fact that the high-technology automobile industry embraces a large number of subsidiary industries...
...It was Peronism, now it will be the Montoneros, or "Montonerismo...
...In 1955 when General Peron's nationalist government was overthrown, Yankee monopoly capital was in a state of global expansion and, by 1958, tlAe Frondizi government had facilitated its further penetration within the country...
...This phenomenon is a serious source of concern for the monopolies as it prevents any form of planning...
...It is a capitalist doctrine, but it limits the possibilities for capital accumulation basically because of its [progressive] distributionist policies...
...To explain this situation it is necessary to understand political developments since 1930...
...This was recognized explicitly by the business representative at the last congress of the International Labor Organization who maintained that foreign investment was necessary for the development of the productive forces in Argentina...
...During the period of the military dictatbrship (1966-73) we characterized Per6n as a socialist leader...
...For example, a Youth Branch had to be created at a very late point because that social sector clearly was important in the process and had not been incorporated into previous structures...
...The leap in identity assumes that the working class and the people-or Peronism in general-will become Montoneros...
...1718 Firmenich: Here it is necessary to go back a bit and repeat some of our previous analyses...
...The working class, on the other hand, in order to maintain its organizational gains and its level of consumption, refused to accept increased exploitation...
...Peronism's organizational or structural limitations stem from this doctrine and are manifested in its strategic, tactical and rank-and-file party structures...
...The Political Branch was completely inoperative because it functioned exclusively within the bourgeois party system...
...For us it is important to keep in mind the structural elements of the crisis, as these elements force the system to take diverse economic measures...
...Here the principal contradiction appears stripped to the bone: imperialist monopoly capital against that part of the working class dependent on it...
...For these reasons, it is the most dynamic sector...
...A POLITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE PRESENT STAGE IN THE ARGENTINE REVOLUTIONARY PROCESS I. PERONISM: VALIDITY, CRISIS AND NEW DIRECTIONS Question: Compafiero F irmenich, in El Montonero No...
...It was with this in mind that the automobile industry was established in Argentina...
...It is necessary to distinguish the diverse sectors that make up the class and to analyse the internal secondary contradictions that exist within it...
...These allow for the development of the internal laws of the determining element, the nucleus of which is the industrial proletariat...
Vol. 11 • January 1977 • No. 1
