A MOMENT Interview with Walter Mondale
A MOMENT INTERVIEW WITH WALTER MONDALE In a sense, your candidacy speaks to the question of whether the traditional liberal coalition is still viable, and we'd like to talk with you about that. But...
...In addition, I think that Israel undergirds our values...
...In the initial discussions of our administration, there was some talk of a Palestinian homeland or a Palestinian entity...
...That was not a non-forthcoming agreement, not at all...
...And, second, the disputes between us should be conducted in a civilized, respectful partnership, and not in some kind of employer-employee, parent-child manner...
...Now look at the terms of Israel's agreement with Lebanon as they're beginning to leak out...
...First of all, the United States must pursue its own national security interest around the world, and the president is pledged to do exactly that...
...I am comfortable and content with that...
...It goes much deeper, I think...
...that doesn't give leadership to this country and that won't satisfy this country...
...What we do in the world must have the support of our own people...
...I'll give you the same answer...
...This may sound like a hostile question...
...And that brings me to the last point...
...Second, I think there's a unique relationship between the United States and Israel that has to be defined with particularity and care...
...That's inevitable in a democracy...
...That's there...
...I'm quite optimistic...
...We have to have a major new national effort, in partnership with state and local governments, with parents, with private institutions, with everyone else, to get our intellectual capital restored to the level that can meet the demands of this ever-more complex and technological world...
...Where did that disappear...
...The American people now see that this administration has breached some 35 years of bipartisan presidential leadership to control nuclear weapons and to reduce the risk of their use...
...I also believe that the most serious indictment of the Reagan administration is that they simply aren't preparing this country for its future...
...The Camp David accords contemplate that Arabs in the West Bank would participate in the negotiations...
...According to Brzezinski, you were quite prepared, during the first year of the Carter administration— the traditional time of "reassessment"—to come down hard on Israel, and it was only much later, when domestic political considerations came again to the fore, that you softened your position...
...I'm specifically ruling out the PLO, yes...
...How do you preserve the distinction...
...Can the old coalition be put back together again...
...Israel was forthcoming, generous...
...The American people do not like that, not at all, and they expect a president, above all, as his most solemn responsibility, to reach out and control these weapons, to try to get some civilized dialogue going, if at all possible, with the Soviet Union...
...For 80 years, since Teddy Roosevelt, we've had a bipartisan approach to such things as the environment...
...What about toxic waste and acid rain...
...So I am really mystified by Dayan's comment...
...I feel very strongly about that...
...We here are a democracy...
...A president is not elected to be emperor for four years...
...Such matters as Israel's settlement policy, or the de facto absorption of the West Bank into Israel proper, create vehement debate not only within Israel...
...I think it's a good record, a solid record, and I know that would be affirmed by the people that I dealt with...
...my record is there for everybody to see...
...They all came to the same conclusion, that the federal government has a role...
...American foreign policy is committed, and should be, to the defense of democracy, and Israel is a stable democracy—the only one, in fact, in that region...
...She's a tough negotiator, to be sure...
...Fortunately, I have a public record that can be measured to determine just what in fact I did do, and I have a range of people that worked with me who can attest to that record...
...I was on my own...
...And that's what I believe...
...I don't believe in an independent Palestinian state...
...To be sure...
...They're spending a higher percentage of the GNP than we did...
...And yet another thing that was forgotten the next day was that although there was much death in Lebanon, there is only one country that investigated and determined fault, for which people paid a price when they were found to have done wrong...
...But contempt for the public and its attitudes...
...it's not meant to be...
...They are Palestinians, and they are residents of the West Bank, and that's as it should be...
...But the idea of getting Begin and Hussein, the two nations, sitting down and negotiating, within the context of Camp David—that's my key objective...
...There's a fever building in this country to get with it again, to reclaim our edge...
...Courage...
...support for Israel is in the national security interest of the United States...
...I don't think it would be viable, I don't think it would solve the prob-lehi, and I believe that since it would be totally dependent upon others it would become radicalized very, very quickly...
...There's much talk these days of how the old coalition—the Party, the Jews, the Blacks, the trade union movement—has come undone...
...And now that's being destroyed...
...And that was a precious expression of what kind of society Israel is...
...And that connection is not only to be expected, it's to be required...
...There's a feeling in this country that this administration doesn't understand others, doesn't believe it has to understand them, and, in a clumsy way— which is always the way when you don't know what you're doing—is leading us to a less safe world...
...Let me say a few things...
...And the story is that this leadership, the President and his people, won't meet with the Prime Minister "until he behaves himself...
...There should be no pre-negotiation formulation...
...How constrained is the American administration by domestic factors when it comes to acting in the Middle East...
...And a lot of what I did was public, it's open to examination...
...That's why you need good government and good leadership...
...I don't want to get into personalities, but there were some people in the administration that I had to fight with all the time, every bit of the way...
...Now, within that limitation, how the problem should be resolved is for the parties themselves to decide...
...By attacking it, people will suddenly understand they need it...
...And these ideologues stand there rejoicing in their philistine ways...
...As I've often said, any prime minister of Israel who runs on a platform that says he won't ever argue with the United States shouldn't be elected...
...First, when any nation has been willing to sit down with Israel, Israel has been very forthcoming...
...That formulation is very close to the way your mentor, Hubert Humphrey, used to respond to the same question...
...There are two or three other things that have to be said as well...
...With the shrinking size of the world, and the increased high technology that's demanded of our defense and of our competitive posture in the world market place, we need tough new standards that enhance what we're doing...
...They're very specific on that...
...But I've never supported an independent Palestinian state as a solution...
...What about public health...
...Look, when we have a major national problem, we are reminded repeatedly, as we have been since 1785 in Philadelphia, that you can't solve major national problems without using a strong central government...
...There's no alternative...
...They're spending more than we did...
...And the people are not about to tolerate that...
...Later in our administration, the President said that he was opposed to a Palestinian nation-state, and I think that was a proper formulation...
...You've no doubt been asked many times to explain Moshe Dayan's angry characterization of your meeting with him back in 1978...
...You know, there's a theory around—which I reject—that you somehow demonstrate the toughness of your foreign policy by demonstrating that it is precisely the foreign policy the American people do not want...
...he is elected to be president of the United States, and to represent his values and his purposes and the strength and expressed will of the American people...
...Right now, for example, it's been many months since Prime Minister Begin has been invited to talk with the President...
...He wanted a commission that would endorse his retreat from education, but they unanimously voted exactly the opposite...
...I think that initially it smelled an awful lot like the Rogers Plan, and I objected to that...
...A day doesn't go by we don't read about wealthy Americans becoming wealthier on the same page we read about our inability to support hospice care for dying cancer patients or about cutting out funds to help handicapped children, to give them a chance, or about prospects to increase the costs of hospital care for the sick elderly by 70 percent, or about our unwillingness to do anything for the unemployed, to help them keep their families together—just this elemental principal of dignity...
...But before we turn to that question, there are some things about Israel and the Middle East and the United States that we ought to cover...
...Tough in negotiations, but when you look at that agreement it's clear that Israel's objective was to restore the integrity of Lebanon, to try to move Lebanon's policy to peace and stability while maintaining Israel's own security...
...Leadership...
...It happens in all societies...
...Now comes Fritz Mondale, likely the one candidate who can still claim that old coalition as his own, and who seems to represent it, and asks to be president...
...But to recognize or negotiate with the PLO...
...Yet I presume that when you say that Hussein ought to enter the negotiations, you imagine that out of such negotiations might come some disposition of the West Bank other than its absorption by Israel...
...I think that's a head-on collision with the basic principles of our society...
...Still, what nation has given up more in negotiations than Israel did for the sake of a peace treaty with Egypt...
...The "reassessment" strategy has always proved to be a disaster...
...And now they expect the President to reach out for a mutual, negotiated, verifiable freeze, and I'm in favor of that...
...The first is that we won't condition, restrain or seek to use essential American economic and military assistance as a club to force Israel to do what she does not want to do...
...Yes and no...
...The second thing that I disagreed with is that we put an awful lot of pressure on Israel, public pressure, to make concessions before talks occurred in order to get Hussein to sit down, all this at a time when we had no real assurance that Hussein planned to sit down...
...But the condition has to be her acceptance as a nation...
...I think that's a very serious mistake, particularly in light of what the Soviet Union has been doing lately, with its strong and very dangerous power play in Syria...
...Fortunately, there were some other people present at that meeting, This conversation with Walter Mondale took place on May 11, 1983...
...Instead, this administration talks about winning wars and firing warning shots...
...So I am proud of my record...
...The President says that government is the problem—and he's set out to prove that it can be...
...They're fighting for survival...
...This isn't economics we're seeing, it's theology, and it's a theology of Social Darwinism, and you can't run this nation that way, and I believe Americans will see that...
...Instead, we have an administration that's turned its back, totally, on the challenge, a challenge that's coming from every sector of American life...
...I think what Israel did is unprecedented in modern history...
...Couldn't one argue that though there is that fever, and a high one, that most people don't perceive government as an especially competent physician...
...It's only in the context of negotiation...
...I went to Israel in 1978 as Vice-President, and if you talk to any of the leaders of the Israeli government, they'll tell you that I was supportive and helpful—which I was all the way through...
...Of course there are going to be differences...
...I told someone the other day that I thought Reagan was going to do for social justice what Nixon did for the Constitution...
...As to the White House, I think if you talk to almost anybody who was dealing with the White House during those four years, you'll find that my record was solidly supportive of Israel...
...That's what 242 says, that's what Camp David says, and that ought to be the formulation...
...Take the President's Commission on Educational Excellence...
...So far as my years in the Senate are concerned, I think my record there in support of a solid, respectful relationship with Israel was as good as anybody's, and my personal involvement in the issue was superior to most...
...That's why we have to have the debate again, the debate about the role of government...
...We did have a discussion about settlements, as he says, but it was a respectful discussion, and I am simply mystified by his comments...
...There were some formulations current during our administration with which I disagreed and which I tried to change...
...and I think they all came away with a very different impression from the one Day an had...
...The concept of territories for peace is what I agree with...
...If all these nations simply posture, which is what they're doing today, there'll never be a resolution...
...The situation in the Middle East itself is obviously both confused and confusing...
...What's important here is that when there are differences, two things are required...
...With regard to these kinds of issues, too, this administration is radical...
...And what about preparing our nation for this next generation, for this radically different world, this revolutionarily different world in which the next generation will live, in which science and high technology and knowledge-intensive industries and computer telecommunications and bio-technology will all matter so much...
...When you say that nation-states should negotiate, are you specifically ruling out representatives of the Palestinians themselves...
...Absolutely, no question about it...
...There were people around all the time, both inside and outside the administration, people who were working with us, who would say what I've just said...
...I'm pleased to say that was all dropped and replaced by the much more responsible formulation of the Camp David accords, which require, in the context of negotiations, a resolution of the Palestinian problem in all its aspects...
...In the meantime, very many leaders of Arab countries have been here...
...We've agreed, and I think it's right, in the Sinai II accords not to do that until the PLO accepts |UN Resolution] 242, the permanency of the Jewish State of Israel, and an end to terrorism...
...I think that's the worst formulation possible...
...Yet you take pains to separate the issue of support for Israel, as expressed in terms of economic aid or military assistance, from the American response to Israeli policy...
...Let's shift now, if we may, to the Democratic Party...
...And that's why I believe what I've always said, that if Hussein would actually sit down and negotiate seriously, people would be surprised at what Israel would do, at the extent to which Israel would go to find peace...
...It makes no sense just to curse the darkness, or just to light one candle, which is their approach...
...Let Hussein sit down, let other nation-states sit down, and let's resolve these problems in a way that history will confirm...
...These people instead have broken all records...
...Is it just the economic thing, or is it also the sudden emergence of the war-peace issue, as reflected, say, in the nuclear freeze debate...
...But I'll tell you— if I were Prime Minister Begin, I'd be tough, too...
...The administration in which you served, and which you helped lead, was on the record as opposed to Israel's settlement policy and in favor of a Palestinian homeland...
...We reserve the right to pick our leaders, and democratic societies have that right, and understanding that Israel is a democracy and can pick the leaders it wants to is fundamental to a responsible relationship between our two countries...
...Millions of Americans who have a right to expect better from their government have been robbed of their dignity, all for a radical policy of profound economic distribution away from middle and moderate income Americans and in favor of those who are already exceedingly well-off...
...During our four years, we never did it, and I think that's fundamental to a respectful relationship, to a relationship in which Israel, particularly in light of the tragedies of its history, can feel secure in taking some chances for peace...
...We're constantly told that there is a real tension between the State Department and sometimes even the White House, on the one hand, and Congress, on the other, with the Executive branch wanting to carry out a balanced foreign policy but inhibited from doing that by domestic concerns to which Congress is especially reponsive...
...And one of the reasons I feel close to Israel is that I think her security is a part of our interest...
...Some people call that politics...
...The president can't always deliver good news, not by any means...
...And I say that because I fear that it will be forgotten, just as Israel's concessions in the case of Egypt have so widely been forgotten...
...Whether it was making certain we didn't condition economic and military support for Israel on Israeli political concessions, or pushing for the Camp David Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, or in many, many other areas, I think the record is very, very good...
...But there's got to be a connection between what the American people want over the long run and what the American government does...
...I call it democracy...
...While foreign ambassadors do not engage in American politics, nor should they, I believe that if you were to talk to the ambassadors from Israel during those four years, to Simcha Dinitz and Eppie Evron, or with our ambassador to Israel, Sam Lewis, they would all report that I was a solid, committed, caring Vice-President trying to keep a solid, respectful relationship with Israel...
...Now that Commission was appointed by President Reagan...
...Even if sometimes it seems like a life's work...
...Those middle-income people are now being asked to fund a budget policy with runaway defense spending and appalling, historically unprecedented deficits that drive that budget...
...Now, there will always be talk, in the early part of the effort, about divisions and differences, about strategies of this group or that group to leverage more influence...
...But having spent the last two, three years on the road, more than anyone else has, I can tell you there's an underlying sense of the need to unite, to get going again...
...There's a dirty little secret here, and it's that the Reagan people are spenders...
...Hell, no...
...First, it is none of our business to decide who will lead the Israeli government...
...But what about the environment...
...1 believe there's a resurgence of the desire to unify and get behind these problems...
...In some cases you can, but not always, and this is a classic example of when you can't...
...The same goes for withholding the F-16s...
...they seem also to upset many people in American government...
...In your view, was the Reagan initiative constructive...
...Similarly, a president of the United States who runs on the proposition that you should never dispute the leaders of Israel shouldn't be elected...
...Could you, nonetheless, tell us what accounts for it...
...that's inevitable...
...Whatever happened to that balanced budget...
...For five years now, there's been an administration in Israel that is rather different from the one American leaders were accustomed to working with, different both in style and in substance...
...Yes, it is...
...That, in fact, is the only way it's ever going to be done...
...It's a shame that the basic elements here are so quickly forgotten that they have to be repeated and repeated again...
...We obviously need to control nuclear weapons if we're to have a future at all...
...Israel's values are consistent with American values, and I believe the American people know that and support that...
Vol. 8 • June 1983 • No. 6
