Who Ya'aseh Shalom? A MOMENT Symposium on the Reagan Peace Initiative
Shultz, George
WHO YA'ASEH SHALOM? A MOMENT SYMPOSIUM ON THE REAGAN PEACE INITIATIVE GEORGE SHULTZ MOSHE ARENS ABBA EBAN On September 1,1982, President Ronald Reagan addressed the nation on the subject of...
...It's good that the Syrians should remove themselves...
...While I cannot summarize for you the totality of a rich and complex speech, I would like to review four important points made by the President...
...We maintained their juridical separateness, together with a large measure of human contact...
...Probably the motivation was to express some compassion to Palestinians who had suffered in Beirut, but there are so many other ways of expressing that compassion...
...Do we have the resources to do what has to be done...
...I said to some UJA leaders that something strange is happening...
...Alternatively, the Camp David process and the President's fresh start offer a promise of resolution with -honor and justice to those with the wisdom to join the peace process...
...I'm frequently complimented as being the first Israeli ambassador to talk about aliyah...
...A number of Americans who have looked through the position paper find there surprising concessions to Israel by the American government...
...In other words, disengagement has to be an ideology before it can be a reality...
...Lebanon has been the arena for continued violence, hundreds if not thousands of people have been killed and murdered and there are feelings of monstrous revenge of which we in the Western world can't even conceive...
...Had we been able to arrive at the point where the Palestinian citizens of Israel felt happy and content as loyal citizens in the pluralistic society of Israel, with equal rights, equal opportunities and also equal obligations, then I think that perhaps the whole Palestinian problem might have a somewhat different aspect today...
...It's impossible to envisage Israel as it is today without the record of aliyah that we've had throughout the years...
...they all laughed at that...
...The Prime Minister, when he is confronted with the demographic problem, has a conventional response...
...To talk...
...He will be making a speech announcing these positions, probably within a week...
...positions as you...
...One is that the American definition of the autonomy is not autonomy for the residents, but authority over the land and its resources...
...So when today there's a declaration that the West Bank and Gaza Strip must be a part of Israel forever, that doesn't reflect just a change of government or a rotation of parties...
...In the pre-1967 borders, Israel was barely ten miles wide at its narrowest point...
...Your words are, "That's not a chorus that's likely to sing 'Hatikvah.' " Exactly...
...President Reagan has now set out the lines of affair and realistic solution...
...3. Isolation of the West Bank and Gaza from Israel...
...But actually they sowed the seeds of its tragedy, its disintegration, because from that point onward it was a geographic expression within which there was no cohesive sense of national identity...
...Are they, in your view, in any sense the consequence of a policy that involves dominion, occupation of a hostile population...
...Would I notice it in Herzliyah, or would it be the people in Allentown, Pennsylvania, who would feel that they'd been cut off from one of the sources of their security and their vitality...
...That is one deviation from Camp David...
...That's the Middle East in which we are living, and if you say that we are being coarsened, I don't accept that, I don't agree with that...
...He could have invited the Bishop of Beirut or some of the peaceful residents, both Lebanese and Palestinian, or illustrated his compassion by some participation in the relief...
...That is a very grave matter indeed, since what is at issue is the Jewish character of our state, its Jewishness both in the ethnic sense and in the moral sense...
...And third, there is the President's speech of September 1. This historic address builds on the earlier documents by stating categorically that our approach to peace will continue to be based on Resolution 242, with its concept of an exchange of territory for peace, and the Camp David Accords, which provide for Palestinian self-government with full guarantees for Israel's security...
...Somebody says, "Everything except this part of Jordan Valley," or, "Everything except the other...
...That's ridiculous...
...He came back to Washington and issued his disclaimer: "I've never spoken to Mr...
...It is wrong to throw out the positive babies with the unnecessary bath water...
...It's a strange subconscious assumption he makes...
...It's an artificial thing, almost a figment of an imagination, even if it may be what many Israelis would love to have...
...C. We will oppose: 1. Dismantlement of the existing settlements...
...I think that when you look at the negotiations—and I've pointed this out to Secretary Shultz—you must remember that we in Israel look upon these issues, as important as they are to the United States, as being relevant to our very existence and to our very future...
...We wisely put up one of our hawks—Shlomo Hillel—who accused Begin of hysteria...
...His welcome to Arafat runs completely against that because it's gratuitous, and it has the added element of absurdity because he himself was a victim of terrorism personally...
...3. Hussein understands that Camp David is the only base that we will accept for negotiations...
...If the thing is in substance in accordance with Camp David, I think the Israeli government and American government will find it very difficult to reject him because he doesn't like the name of the table...
...The most that's been achieved is the "reduction" of the Arab population from 100 percent to 98 percent or 99 percent— and that's all that can ever be done...
...Our vision of the future on the West Bank is one guided by a vision of a secure Israel living with defensible borders and by our abiding belief that it is not in Israel's long-term interests to try to rule over the more than one million Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza...
...American Jews, for their part, were in the early stages of debating the Reagan initiative when the massacre in Sabra and Shatila took place, dramatically diverting attention and interest from the President's proposals to the unfolding story of the tragedy and its aftermath...
...I'm oversimplifying a little bit, but that was the basic tenor of what he said...
...Transitional Measures A. Our position is that the objective of the transitional period is the peaceful and orderly transfer of authority from Israel to the Palestinian inhabitants...
...It would be absurd for me to think that Jews abroad are not going to be interested, or to contribute their counsel or concern...
...There is a widespread perception among American Jews that the Begin position is merely tactical, that this is how we store up bargaining points for the table...
...it lost nearly 200 dead in 1956...
...I think you'd have a tough time making that case...
...I don't find this aspect of the job to be particularly onerous or difficult...
...Is there going to be aliyah from the United States to Israel...
...There is no foundation of political support in Israel or the United States for such a solution...
...Patriotism has to do not only with the assertion of your interests, but also with the celebration of your values...
...That's really the issue...
...For the moment we ought to be able to unite, at least on a preventative basis, and work the rest out afterwards...
...The biggest deviations from Camp David were the Israeli and Egptian ones...
...That's certainly not my view...
...On the contrary, there is a dialectical contradition...
...But let me be clear: We have a right to be heard but we have no intention of using our support for Israel's security as a way of imposing our views...
...It really renounced the idea of unilateral Israeli annexation...
...It could have been postponed that long...
...I would say if you have a significant number of people who are going to Israel from the United States, it becomes less likely that South Africans and Russians and Argentinians are going to opt to go to the United States...
...Therefore, what I say is that it really comes down to either Israeli sovereignty or Arab sovereignty...
...What have you been saying to American Jewish leadership regarding the Reagan plan...
...Those who do take the time to read those historic documents soon recognize the genius of Camp David...
...So the real issue is the reenactment in our day of the partition debate...
...And I think if we work on it, there's a chance we will have aliyah...
...Or, as Mr...
...all the rest—what is done in Lebanon, what is done in the West Bank, how you react to Reagan's plans—is really a function of this division between two schools of Zionism that have been in contention for 50 years...
...There is nothing that says that Palestinian self-government in association with Jordan must lead inevitably to a Palestinian state...
...We agreed to secure the freedom of our northern region from the potential range of any terrorist violence...
...In light of the seriousness of American purpose, and in light of the fact that the proposal has already elicited a wide variety of reactions from American Jews, we believe it deserves very careful examination...
...The evacuation of the PLO from Beirut and the forceful demonstration of Israeli capability make this an altogether unique moment, a moment of opportunity to end this cycle...
...I'd say that must be a prime objective of ours, regardless of whether you opt for the pre-'67 borders, or the Jordan River, or anything in between...
...If they would say, "This is our document, and this we will bring to the negotiating table," I would say, "Fine, we will tell you there why we won't accept it...
...Shouldn't we have enough respect for Mr...
...The issues are complex, the emotions deep, the forces in the Middle East contentious and the stakes so [ great...
...There's no anomaly...
...We will not be able, however, to guarantee in advance the results of these negotiatons...
...The President's initiative contains firm American principles...
...But the idea of visiting Israel and Tel Aviv and the Weizmann Institute and Nahalal—it's a very strange paradox, this desire to avoid the realities of Israel itself and this interest only in what the French would have called "Israel d'outremer"—"Israel's overseas" possessions...
...The Opportunity of the Present Despite the many dark periods of stagnation, setback and delay since 1967, a look at the long-term trend in the Middle East is encouraging...
...1. King Hussein has received the same U.S...
...true peace can only be achieved through lasting negotiated agreements leading ultimately to friendly cooperation between Israel and her neighbors...
...Triumphs of statecraft are decisions which join opportunity with action...
...In that sense, since I think a nation must think in terms of generations and not in terms of months and years, it really doesn't matter—and maybe this is something we need to explain to the Reagan Administration—in the final analysis, long-term, whether it's Jordanian sovereignty or Palestinian sovereignty...
...In 1978 they refused to support Egypt when the Camp David Accords were signed...
...If there were no differences of opinion, there would be no need for negotiations...
...If, on the other hand, you have a dearth of aliyah from the United States, if no one in his "right mind" would think of going to Israel, it's most likely that South Africans and Russians and Argentinians are also going to decide that they're better off going to the United States...
...That is very important for Israel...
...But don't blame the Times...
...But the structure of Camp David is properly pentagonal, not triangular...
...It suggests something that's never been done before...
...We believe that the Palestinians must take the leading role in determining their own future and fully support the provision in Camp David providing for the elected representatives of the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza to decide how they shall govern themselves consistent with the provision of their agreement in the final status negotiations E. Jerusalem We will fully support the position that the status of Jerusalem must be determined through negotiations...
...The Jew who leaves Russia and comes to Vienna has to make a decision: Is he going to go to the United States or is he going to go to Israel...
...In these circumstances, President Reagan decided that the time had come for renewed American leadership...
...How big is it going to be in terms of statistical extrapolations...
...No one's saying we can't talk to the United States about it...
...Some people react that Reagan is abandoning Camp David because he's bringing in new people...
...But the very fact that it also has this deviation from the written agreement, ffom a commitment that we made (or at least that we interpreted as such), leaves us no choice but to turn it down as a framework for Israeli-Egyptian-Jordanian negotiations...
...Some people in Israel take comfort from the fact that he hasn't formally annexed them, but this ignores the fact that there is something worse than formal annexation...
...An element in that realism is that the United States has decided to state publicly where it stands on critical questions...
...The outcome, however, must be determined by negotiations...
...We ask for nothing more of any of the participants at the beginning of the process...
...Some have placed more stress on its ambiguities, some on its positive aspects, but nobody has said it must be thrown out of the window, it must not even be discussed, it's a danger to Israeli security...
...4. Real settlement freeze...
...So there was certainly logic in what I call the "Galilee War...
...Surprisingly, Golda is on record in her very last speech, on her 80th birthday, as saying that if somebody offered us the West Bank and Gaza, with their million and a quarter Arabs, on a silver platter, we ought to turn them down...
...2. Provisions which represent a legitimate threat to Israel's security, reasonably defined...
...Begin, in reacting to a statement by the Australian Prime Minister, Malcolm Frazer, invited Mr...
...It is somebody else's home...
...I've spoken to Secretary Shultz about it since my return, and I am sure we will continue to talk about the subject: us trying to convince the Administration that the Reagan initiative is not a good step in terms of providing encouragement and being conducive to the international peace process, and I guess the Administration trying to convince us that we're wrong and that it is a good step...
...Those who say, "Yes, but we've got to keep all of the Alon plan...
...Not so coarse, I would say...
...4. We are also discussing these proposals with the Saudis...
...Everything I hear is that there is a kind of willingness to negotiate—although the Fez statement has no virtue in it at all...
...Would anybody put forth the idea that once Israel has withdrawn from Lebanon this will be the end of that kind of murder...
...It's bound to be, it's got to be, a pluralistic society even within the pre-'67 borders...
...The government's statement is that the position paper submitted by Reagan and his advisors—and I say the position paper and not the speech because there's some confusion about those two things—cannot serve as the framework for continued Camp David negotiations...
...You were a member of Betar—the Revisionist youth movement—as a youngster, so partition has never been a part of your Zionism...
...If he wants to come...
...nearly 700 in 1967, and hundreds more in the War of Attrition that lasted until 1970...
...I do believe that all the intermediate schemes are attempts to square the circle—they are proposals that really do not provide an answer, and will not provide an answer that will be acceptable to anybody...
...There isn't such a thing on the face of the globe as a free country, 30 percent of whose population considers itself totally alienated from that country's national personality and identity...
...And here, I think, if you look at Shatila and at Sabra you begin to appreciate the terrible problem that Israel faces by not being in the Middle West, but by being in the Middle East...
...4. Measures which accord either the Palestinians or the Israelis generally recognized sovereign rights with the exception of external security, which must remain in Israel's hands during the transitional period Final Status Issues A. U.N.S.C...
...I think these are the three major points: authority over the land and resources, East Jerusalem and internal security, and then lastly, I would say a deviation from the spirit of Camp David and America's position in that process...
...Israel has demonstrated once again, at tragic cost, that it will not be defeated militarily...
...In what respect...
...Something that's very natural in human behavior when you're faced with two very bad choices: people try to square the circle, and say there must be some better solution in between...
...The Challenge to Israel The challenge that the President has offered to Israel is to extend its hand to welcome wider participation in the peace process...
...I put it as follows: If I'd heard that the United States had the idea of incorporating 80 million Russians or other foreign nationals into the United States, people who had not the slightest spark of devotion or loyalty or sentiment for the American experience, the American dream, the American identity, the American flag, I'd consider that the United States was retiring from history and inflicting irrevocable harm on itself...
...I don't think anyone knows the answer to that...
...Alon's suggestion of cutting it up into little doughnuts and various peculiarly-shaped geometric objects that would give Israel all the security and none of the Arabs—it just doesn't seem reasonable that anybody on the other side would ever accept that sort of thing or even that the population would agree to sit in this strange mosaic that would be envisaged for it...
...You'd have to be a tremendous optimist to put that proposition forth...
...We must also recognize another reality: The positions now held by the potential partners in negotiations are widely at variance...
...it's equally good that we should for our own sake get back to ourselves, to Israel, to the Jewish vocation of Israel, to its problems...
...Peace offers new economic possibilities—when the defense burden is lightened—to build a better life at home and contribute to the prosperity of the region and the world...
...But doesn't a very large Arab minority—perhaps even a majority— create its own kind of security problem...
...I'm rather concerned that there is developing in some high places in Israel a certain "Lebanese syndrome...
...I can think of people whom he could have received it he wanted to express a sense of concern for that suffering...
...Sharon...
...For only in the context of true peace, freely negotiated, can there be true security for Israel-and her neighbors...
...In the middle, most people understand that that's a dilemma, and all the arguing and all the disputations in Israel center around this very question—or the lack of readiness of many people to say that we really have an impossible problem on our hands...
...But we all recognize that while true peace requires military strength, strength alone is not enough...
...Again, that was a subject that was fought over at Camp David...
...Sam Goldwyn said that forecasting is very difficult—especially about the future...
...For what Sadat said in the Knesset is identical with what was said in Fez, with two important exceptions: Sadat explicitly welcomed Israel into the Middle East, and, even more important, said that now, having said what my view is, I am prepared to negotiate...
...C. Palestinian State The preference we will pursue in the final status negotiation is association of the West Bank and Gaza with Jordan...
...To sum that up, my interpretation is, and I'm not even sure that the government said this, that if the Reagan initiative were implemented, it would mean a one-way street to withdrawal to the pre-'67 borders...
...Beyond that they offer the practical opportunity of eventually achieving the peace treaties Israel must have with its neighbors...
...Are you distressed that the enemies of peace in other camps in effect inhibit debate by reiterating their extreme positions...
...And now this fantasy that America needs us more than we need America...
...Frazer to come to Israel and Lebanon...
...We are, after all, surrounded by cultures and societies that are very different from us and that have a tremendous element of fanaticism and brutality and lack of tolerance in them...
...We must not underestimate the dilemmas and risks that Israel faces in opting for negotiations, but they are dwarfed by those created by a continuation of the status quo...
...I'm afraid that he made peace with Egypt for the purpose of not having to make peace with anybody else...
...unfortunately, I haven't been able to attend to it the way I should because things have been so eventful...
...Our preference is for self-government by the Palestinians in association with Jordan, with the extent of withdrawal determined by the quality of peace offered in return...
...I say "trying to" because it's quite hopeless...
...The Prime Minister asserted that support for the Reagan proposal was "treasonous...
...The President has offered a challenge—the challenge of peace—to Israelis and Arabs alike...
...As the interviews make clear, whether or not the Reagan initiative provides, as its authors hope it will, a basis for negotiations in the Middle East, it has already provided a basis for very sharp debate...
...If he wants to come...
...Palestinians living in Israel, Israeli citizens, have equal rights under Israeli law, but I don't think anyone would argue that they have equal opportunities, or anything like it...
...This, too, was thought about and was done very consciously...
...But we have to go beyond talk, and figure out what we need to do...
...If you go through the position paper, you'll find a number of major points...
...I hope so...
...Imagine how the genius of the Israeli nation could flourish if it were freed from the physical and psychological burdens imposed by the continuing state of conflict...
...His work is but the latest evidence of how crucial is the help of the United States if the peoples and nations of the region are to stop the fighting, construct solid agreements and prevent wars between Arabs and Israelis from again threatening to become the focal point of global conflict...
...Israeli society is an open, free, democratic society and I don't know that you can point to any other country where there is room to raise an accusing finger against the establishment for being in some way associated with some kind of tragedy of this sort—and after all there have been other cases in the rest of the world as well—I don't think you can point to any other country that has gone through this self-purging and self-examination process as Israel has, and within a week has come up with a conclusion that there's going to be an independent judicial inquiry of everything that was done by everybody, including the government and the army...
...These UJA missions used to arrive at Ben-Gurion Airport and rush down into Sinai...
...The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion...
...It's impossible to fault the Reagan speech as a deviation from Camp David...
...It is time for the Arab world to recognize the opportunity provided by Camp David...
...We will not support the formation of a Palestinian slate in those negotiations...
...We wanted full peace, we didn't want to give everything back, over our dead body would we give back Yamit...
...Because once you set up a self-governing authority—one in which the East Jerusalem people participate—that has authority over the land and the resources of the entire area between the pre- and the post-'67 borders, how would you ever reverse that...
...2. Hussein considers our proposals serious and gives them serious attention...
...the chance once again to be free, prosperous and democratic, posing no threat to its neighbors and serving as a stable bridge between the West and the Arab world...
...Once views are expressed, the place, indeed the only place, to thrash out differences is at the bargaining table...
...Aliyah to me means aliyah from the United States, because the United States is not only the most important reservoir for aliyah to Israel...
...Those words represent the President's, and America's, fundamental commitment to Israeli security and to genuine peace...
...For some time it was modified for the sake of office and respectability, but it is now coming out almost as in the 30s, including this extraordinary capacity for fantasy...
...Yes, that was quite incredible...
...In other words, there were two wars, and it is quite possible to take different attitudes toward them, because all that they had in common was the circumstance of continuity...
...As we move ahead, the United States, as a full partner, will reserve the right to support positions on either side when we feel this is likely to promote fair agreement...
...In that speech, the Secretary lays out the underlying rationale for the initiative—the key contents of which are contained in "talking points" submitted to Israel by President Reagan and here reprinted in a special box...
...first of all, because Camp David is something that has been signed, agreed to and ratified by the Israeli Knesset...
...Our view really has nothing to do with foreign policy at all...
...Resolution 242 It is our position that Resolution 242 applies to the West Bank and Gaza and requires Israeli withdrawal in return for peace...
...It began with the majority counting itself every month: Are we 58 percent...
...In that connection, we provide here three different perspectives on the Reagan initiative...
...they just want to get out of there...
...We felt that this would wear down one of the achievements of Camp David—the idea that East Jerusalem was different...
...In fact, it wasn't a sin...
...Three negotiated disengagement agreements have been signed...
...Camp David calls for a "just, comprehensive and durable" Middle East peace based on Resolution 242, but builds on it as well by calling for a solution that recognizes "the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people and their just requirements" . and a "resolution of the Palestinian problem in all its aspects...
...Fundamentally, the issue is not the plan, nor is it Lebanon...
...Arab reaction, too, has been mixed...
...A MOMENT SYMPOSIUM ON THE REAGAN PEACE INITIATIVE GEORGE SHULTZ MOSHE ARENS ABBA EBAN On September 1,1982, President Ronald Reagan addressed the nation on the subject of America's Middle East policy...
...People who know Israel well know that the successes of those Israeli pilots, those Israeli "supermen," are all based on some pretty tenuous links, that have a lot to do with our borders and the ability to mobilize our military reserves...
...I think that the United States understands that...
...At the moment we have a preventative task, to prevent the incorporation of the West Bank into Israel from becoming the national consensus...
...It was inherent in this hybrid structure of a nation whose major groups do not hold in common the goals of life...
...When we did have a chance of annexing Gaza, after the Suez-Sinai war, Ben-Gurion said that we should have as much interest in annexing Gaza because it enlarges our size as a man should have in preserving a cancerous growth because it makes his body bigger...
...We trust that support will be forthcoming soon...
...The Israeli ministers offering help or giving warning of penalties...
...But, if we are being coarsened, we're being coarsened by living in this environment all the time...
...And we will put forward our own proposals when appropriate, to the same end...
...And, in the final analysis, that friendship and resolve deserve, in return, to be reciprocated by a willingness to listen with an open mind to the views of others...
...But I think that's really less than the whole story, because the United States does have a special position in these negotiations...
...I think there are very few Israelis who don't recognize that that is the basic dilemma they face...
...I commented on this in the Knesset...
...The challenge Israel faces now is to combine diplomacy with power to build an enduring political settlement...
...Success in the peace process depends on Arab support for these vital missing partners to join the negotiations and become partners for peace...
...Kissinger hasn't called him up...
...The title is a play on the phrase from the Kaddish prayer, hu ya'aseh shalom—may He make peace . . .) We begin with a speech which Secretary of State Shultz, the principal architect of the initiative, delivered to a national meeting of the United Jewish Appeal on September 12...
...I don't know how Israeli Jews or Americans justify going in and out of Beirut unless the Lebanese people, represented by President Sarkis or somebody, have invited them there...
...If that's unacceptable, how much more so is the current Israeli posi- * tion unacceptable...
...But I can hardly think of anybody who, if faced with the alternatives of assuring Israeli possession or Israeli sovereignty over a piece of territory, as opposed to some danger to the State of Israel, whether of a security nature or of another nature, would accept these dangers for the sake of making sure that there would be Israeli control over this or that part of the territory...
...But permanent control...
...This the President did on the first of September...
...In other words, the Palestinian farmer may feel he has equal opportunities with the Israeli farmer...
...Israel has demonstrated once more its military strength and bravery...
...it is also the alternative to Jews who leave other countries of origin...
...The crucial point is that when it comes to safeguarding the long-term security of Israel, the friendship and resolve of the United States are second in importance only to Israel's own resolution and strength...
...If, for the moment, you look at the alternative, that the President pf the United States says, "Ultimately, we think there should be Israeli sovereignty in these areas," I think it's pretty clear that the Egyptians and the Jordanians would say, "We may be ready to negotiate, but not with you as a mediator, if that is your position...
...The President has stated clearly and unequivocally that we will not support an independent Palestinian state in the territories...
...But the disintegration began even before the Christians became a minority...
...Yes, Israel also has a veto...
...Who would notice it first...
...To which Sharon says that he may just have referred to Kissinger's views and that the interviewer (Oriana Fallaci) may have wrongly believed that he meant Kissinger telephoned him...
...he was in some place without a telephone on the day that he is supposed to have called...
...If we can then move to the larger question, which is obviously implicit in both the statement and the government's response to it: the question of the ultimate solution, of sovereignty...
...To put it very bluntly—but I don't think it's an oversimplification—Israel has to make a choice between borders that are defensible but that make for what may turn out to be an impossible demographic problem, or an impossible problem in terms of the size of the ethnic minority living in Israel, and borders that are indefensible but with a smaller ethnic minority living in Israel...
...The Camp David framework upholds the importance of self-government for the Palestinians of»rhe West Bank and Gaza...
...I think maybe if we make advances in terms of creating a pluralistic society, maybe if it turns out that some of the people there would want to live in the area but continue their association with Jordan by having Jordanian citizenship, maybe in terms of some kind of association between Israel and Jordan in the future, all that can be made do-able, can even be made acceptable...
...We will not support their continuation as extraterritorial outposts...
...In 1977 that doctrine was voted down—and if there was any doubt about the meaning of that election, the doubt was removed in 1981...
...Incidentally, like most sacred texts, Camp David is much more often invoked than read...
...But unfortunately, there is not a parallel between Sinai and the West Bank...
...All one can say is that Reagan and Begin and Sadat, now Mubarak, can all express dreams or hopes, but that nothing they say can commit anybody...
...Fourth, the United States also believes that peace cannot be achieved by the creation of an independent Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza...
...I see that as being maybe the most important part of my job here...
...I'd say that the struggle for aliyah from the United States is a very important struggle...
...The present is such a moment for us all...
...When the Pope receives Arafat, for example, the disposition of Jews is to draw the wagons just that much tighter into the circle...
...How much of your current position has to do with an ideological commitment to "shlemut ha'aretz," to the "integrity of the land...
...Begin said he was going to be a citizen of the Israeli settlements in Sinai, that he would be ashamed to be Prime Minister if he were to sign away the settlements...
...The President has made this forcefully clear...
...In his historic address to the Israeli Knesset, Anwar Sadat spoke of "moments in the lives of nations and peoples when it is incumbent upon those known for their wisdom and clarity of vision to penetrate beyond the past, with all its complexities and vain memories, in a bold drive toward new horizons...
...That merely made the best of what we had...
...And in my view, in full recognition of the extent of the ethnic problem, the demographic problem, I'd say I'm ready to take that particular risk upon ourselves...
...Then, for nearly two decTHE 'TALKING POINTS" General Principles A. We will maintain our commitment to Camp David...
...So there's plenty to talk about...
...He looked at the Israeli army and he said, "This is a superb army, but why do you have to spend all that money and why do people have to spend so much time in this army, when if you only made'peace you wouldn't need the army...
...That is to say, both parties, the anti-partitionists and what I call the defenders of the baContinued on page 64 ABBA EBAN sic Zionist faith, could have said, "We'll solve this when we come to it...
...I was at a meeting of very diverse UJA people...
...A strong, secure Israel is in our interests and the interests of peace...
...My main theme is that the Reagan plan is completely consistent with Camp David, that I don't remember any Presidential speech that gave greater weight or devotion to Israel's security and that the only rational approach would have been a selective analysis...
...His son who goes to the Hebrew University, and then wants to get a job, very quickly finds that he does not have equal opportunities with the guy sitting next to him on the bench...
...You could try to make the case that if Israel had not been in Lebanon today this never would have happened...
...as of the first of January we're moving back to the pre-'67 borders, let them do whatever they want in the area," then of course that would be a real point in the event space in the area...
...B. We will support: I. The decision of full autonomy as giving the Palestinian inhabitants real authority over themselves, the land and its resources, subject to fair safeguards on water...
...And the statement now is that the American position is that autonomy applies to the land and the resources, as we'll...
...I do attach importance to this fantasy of Sharon saying that "Kissinger called me up yesterday...
...It was discussed at very great length and the conclusion was that Israel would carry the responsibility both for external and internal security...
...For tidy historiographical purposes, there should have been an interval between that war and the next so that each could have been discussed in its own context...
...So I fully sympathize—without any difficulty in voicing myxopin-ion—with that commitment, as an international document signed by Israel, the United States and Egypt...
...The point however is this: Any participant in this process—including the United States, as a full partner—is free to have and to enunciate its positions...
...Labor's first task is to be unified...
...But that's nonsense, because Fallaci tapes everything...
...And it provides Palestinian representatives the right to participate in the determination of their future at every step in that process...
...those who say, "We might be able to look at that again if we have to make concessions...
...And now they're 42 percent...
...Well, I'd say there's certainly something to talk about with the Americans...
...Not only don't I agree with that ideologically, I also don't think it's something we'll be able to sustain for any length of time...
...So the Reagan speech did show a certain subtlety of nuance when it said it opposed annexation or permanent control...
...There was a coherent unity called Mount Lebanon, entirely Christian and Druze—Mont Liban—and everybody was quite clear about what it was...
...I think they are unacceptable in different ways...
...I don't know that we can handle it...
...If you put all that together, that's the reason why the Cabinet said this cannot be the framework for Camp David negotiations with all the partners sitting around the table...
...Third, the U.S...
...The normal procedure would have been that it would have evolved into a compact national independence...
...While we support the right of Jews to live in peace on the West Bank and Gaza under the duly constituted governmental authority there—just as Arabs live in Israel—we regard the continuation of settlement activity prior to the conclusion of negotiations as detrimental to the peace process...
...My general estimate of Pope John Paul was always connected to the concept of tactfulness—the way he traveled around the world and found ways of lowering the temperature of conflicts and bringing to expression that which was harmonious...
...If this opportunity is allowed to pass it may never come again...
...Are we 53 percent...
...It's strange that, having come into such close contact with Lebanon, we've never come to an understanding of how the Lebanese tragedy evolved...
...One gets the impression from this distance—you've sat in the Knesset and of course watched from a closer distance—that there is an almost permanent level of hysteria that the Prime Minister has chosen as his manner or to which he is impelled for other reasons...
...I accept that...
...2,800 young Israelis were killed in the 1973 war...
...MOSHE MENS You've said that there are "elements of difference" between the Israeli approach to the Reagan initiative and the initiative itself...
...But this of course brings you back to the problems of security and secure boundaries that we discussed...
...Revisionist Zionism has a different rhetoric from what I call central Zionism...
...How would you estimate the prospects...
...A. Approach to Hussein The President has approached Hussein to determine the extent to which he may be interested in participating...
...They haven't read the text...
...It's ironic, I suppose, that it comes during an Administration with which a large number of Jews have very serious problems on other grounds...
...Your position, expressed long before your appointment as Ambassador, has been that the West Bank, or Judea and Samaria, ought to fall under Israeli sovereignty...
...The issue with regard to the Reagan proposal now may boil down to a readiness by Jordan to talk so long as talks are defined as not part of Camp David, and a readiness by the government of Israel to talk so long as the talks are defined as part of Camp David...
...I reiterate, however, that no specific negotiated result is ruled out: That is the essence of the process...
...3. Participation by the Palestinian inhabitants of East Jerusalem in the election of the West Bank-Gaza authority...
...So what our party is doing is to defend the classical, normative concept of Zionist patriotism...
...Begin to believe that he means what he says, and that he also says what he means...
...What are we here to understand is the Israeli government position...
...Or they may decide to split it up, to splint Jordan into East Palestine and West Palestine...
...The balance of the plan is a moderate and reasonable basis for dialogue...
...One of the encouraging things here in America is that American Jews, although divided in their degrees of independence or docility, have not yet thrown up a single statement that is identical with the tone of the official Israeli rejection of the Reagan plan...
...I say "potential" because for a year there hadn't been any actual hostility, but I do understand that one doesn't want to live on the edge of a volcano just because it hasn't erupted for nine or ten months...
...In other words, the inherent logic of Camp David is partitionist logic...
...Does anything in your experience here suggest that that's a reasonable estimate of how American Jews are likely to behave...
...Those people who predict with certainty that if the situation continues, before you know it, you're going to have a majority of Arabs, may be right, but I'd say that at this stage there really aren't too many facts that tend to support that...
...There has been a strange absence of sensitivity about this...
...That's a dilemma that everybody would like to get out of, if only they could...
...Then we would be, as it were, in the Sadat framework...
...Public Commitment Whatever the support from these or other Arab States, this is what the President has concluded must be done...
...We also contemplate an early visit by Secretary Shultz in the area...
...He acted, as well, because the Middle East today is at a moment of unprecedented opportunity: Israel, the moderate Arab states, the Palestinians and the United States are all affected, and all now face the choice between hope and frustration, between peace and conflict...
...It doesn't carry us a single inch towards peace...
...President Sadat paid his historic and stirring visit to Jerusalem...
...That is a fundamental deviation from classical Zionism...
...Whereas 1 would say Israeli sovereignty over all Judea and Samaria is do-able...
...Why...
...we will not depart from them...
...And this is the issue that will have to be solved...
...On the other hand, isn't it a prescription for permanent de facto Israeli control...
...will nonetheless stand by his position with proper dedication...
...The Palestinians now confront a great decision: whether to continue down the self-destructive road of armed struggle, which has only produced tragedy for the Palestinian people, or to seize the opportunity to affect their destiny by way of the peace process...
...GEORGE SHULTZ The President's Peace Initiative Against the backdrop of confrontation , despair and fear that have characterized the search for peace in the Middle East, three key documents spell out how peace might be made a reality: The first is UN Security Council Resolution 242, which established the basis for a negotiating process founded on the idea of an exchange of territory for real peace...
...In the 1948 War of Independence Israel lost 6,000 dead, out of a population that was much smaller than it is today...
...After all, the demand for Israeli sovereignty over the territory in toto must be a far more unacceptable position...
...Is Labor tough enough now to force a debate on the Reagan plan against whatever upsets ensue in the months ahead...
...I'd say Dayan's suggestion that this be the only territory on the globe where nobody would have sovereignty—again, that doesn't sound like something you can handle for any long period of time...
...I don't know that there are any rulebooks that tell you that...
...What does this bring about...
...Therefore of all the abettors of sin, the United States was the third in line...
...it is today a valid commitment of everyone involved, including the Israeli government, even to those people who didn't vote for it, just as the Panama Canal Treaty is a valid commitment of the United States, even to those senators who voted against it...
...There must be adherence to that document...
...How does Israel get out of the swamp of Lebanon...
...And therefore we believe that for Israel to follow that example is not an act of aggrandizement, it's an act of diminution—diminution of Israel's Zionist purpose and of its possibility of stability and survival...
...I think Israel and certainly Israel's supporters here in the United States have to concentrate on that, and it's much more than just talking about it...
...I wasn't there...
...One hundred and twenty years ago, Abraham Lincoln, speaking to the Congress of the United States, said that "the dogmas of the past are inadequate to the present...
...But Mr...
...We asked for a cease fire on the 12th, objected to the advance to Beirut, to the bombardment of Beirut...
...Are we 54 percent...
...Once you have peace you don't have to worry about secure borders...
...Does that suggest there is something to talk about...
...There are some statements and some paragraphs in the position paper that sound pretty good to us, and that are consistent with things we would like to see, or are things that have never been said by any administration before...
...Formal annexation at least commits you to the risk of awarding citizenship to 1.3 million people...
...This problem of pluralism has to be addressed in any case...
...First of all, let's start with the dilemma that faces Israelis and, I suppose, friends of Israel outside of Israel...
...they get involved in the internal dissensions and politics...
...Are we 57 percent...
...And I would hope that the Israeli people would hold the Israeli government to its declared objective of the removal of all foreign forces...
...The Arab nations missed one chance for peace when they rejected the 1947 UN partition plan...
...they made it bigger...
...If Hussein wants to come, I think we should try to help him save face...
...But there are limits— this opportunity must not be lost...
...The second is the Camp David Accords, which—in the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty—led directly to the realization of such an exchange of territory for peace...
...It was quite possible to endorse the first and not to endorse the second, and that was our policy...
...Begin has said that the negotiations must lead to Israeli sovereignty...
...But he seems to have ignored the fact that Arafat is not the victim of the Lebanese catastrophe...
...So I think there is a good possibility and I would hope that the people who oppose annexation, permanent control, should regard themselves as in one camp even if they are divided in the degree of their opposition or in what picture they would paint afterwards...
...First, by a desire to get out of it...
...But it's not Camp David...
...First of all, Hussein has to decide if he wants to come...
...Therefore, the very fact that the position paper contains what we consider to be serious deviations from the Camp David agreements cannot possibly be compensated for by concessions to our sensibilities...
...Neither with Syrian— witness the unnecessary juridical gesture atop the Golan—and certainly not with the West Bank and Gaza...
...Negotiations must determine the borders...
...It is an accomplishment that is a tribute to the statesmanship of the leaders of three great nations—Prime Minister Begin, the late President Sadat and our own President Carter...
...Begin said, that anyone who supports it is a traitor...
...You've often spoken in the past about the end state of Camp David, which calls for a permanent disposition by unanimous agreement of the parties...
...I would say Israel's whole history, all of Israel's achievements, are all intimately tied to aliyah...
...For the United States, the brilliant, dogged diplomatic achievement of Presidential emissary Phil Habib has shown America's determination and ability to promote just and peaceful solutions to the problems of the area...
...There is something rather high commissioner-like about the apparition...
...Is it your impression that the drafters at Camp David, in using the term, "autonomy for the residents" of the West Bank, consciously chose to indicate the residents rather than the territory—or was that inadvertent...
...We don't see people from Arab countries walking in and out of Israel irrespective of our own design or intention...
...Yes, these things I've not heard from any authoritative American source...
...The bulk of Israel's population lived within artillery range of hostile Arab armies...
...I don't know if it's at all possible for us to arrive at this point, but I would say we have not really tried hard enough...
...We are talking, and will continue to talk to the United States about it...
...My own feeling is that annexation is not likely...
...That's possible, and certainly the alternative to which I pointed, which may be more clear-cut—Arab sovereignty over the area—is clearly a possibility...
...despite this environment, despite continually facing these kinds of problems, we've nevertheless been able to continue to behave as people who believe in Western culture and who practice Western culture...
...We feel the margin for error is very, very small...
...I believe it will gather more and more support as people read and study that speech carefully...
...I am the Ambassador of the State of Israel and it's my job to give voice to the positions of the government of Israel...
...Internal security is the fight against terrorists, terror that would be used not only in the area itself, but from the area towards Israel's towns and villages...
...The same is true of the Camp David Accords on which the President's speech is based...
...In any case, it is better than the risk of taking on ourselves borders that are not defensible...
...Approval for the President's initiative is gathering force and momentum, both here at home and abroad...
...That's right...
...That is in a sense less progressive, because it really means that we intend to maintain them without enfranchisement, to annex people without enfranchising them...
...This is the central Zionist debate...
...it said we have a problem and we're going to address it at some later time...
...I say, to all those people in Israel who keep returning to the Palestinian problem and the need to solve the Palestinian problem, that they're not really being fair to themselves or to the problem when they don't address what is not the least important part of that problem, and what may in many ways turn out to be the most important part of the problem, namely, the situation of those Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens...
...I have a lot of information that he does...
...B. We will maintain our commitment to the conditions we require for recognition of and negotiation with the PL O. C. We can offer guarantees on the position we will adopt in negotiations...
...Now they arrive and they rush up to Beirut...
...Under present circumstances, at least, Israel would exercise its veto over anyone else's sovereignty...
...Beyond that, how big an ethnic minority can you handle in this kind of society...
...In my view, the Alon plan is not viable, not do-able...
...We continued to think that it was solved after 1967, when Israeli governments most carefully refrained from committing themselves by some juridical act to the assimilation of the West Bank and Gaza into the State of Israel...
...We will not support this definition of self-determination...
...But at the same time, the United States is now obligated, by reality and morality alike, to make known its views on what we believe is needed to reach a fair, workable and lasting solution...
...Then my advice to ourselves, and to the United States, would be to recognize the fact that instead of talking about resuming the Camp David talks, we want to talk about beginning them, because the idea of the triangular table—America, Egypt and Israel—is not Camp David...
...His speech was intended to initiate a general debate, and so it has...
...On that, if you were to postulate for a moment that Israel will say, "To hell with it, we don't want this headache...
...The absence of Jordan and representatives of the Palestinian inhabitants of the occupied territories from the negotiations has been the crucial missing link in the Camp David process...
...And the conclusion they reached was that Jerusalem was left separate...
...then you would have Arab sovereignty over the area...
...Each of them tried—at least verbally—to foreclose what the negotiations three years from now are supposed to lead up to...
...Overnight, a government that had been widely accused of having no policy at all in the Middle East has staked out a detailed negotiating proposal...
...F. Settlements The status of Israeli settlements must be determined in the course of the final status negotiations...
...I said, "Let's have an exercise...
...There was the great achievement of the Camp David framework, and the signing in 1979 and fulfillment this past April of the first treaty of peace between Israel and an Arab neighbor—a treaty that is a tribute to the willingness of the people of Israel and of Prime Minister Begin to take risks for peace...
...The United States recognizes its obligations, as the principal supporter of Israel's security, to be understanding of Israel's specific circumstances in the negotiating process...
...The government's view is in the Cabinet's statement and there's probably nothing that I could do to embellish it or decorate it in terms of interpreting the government's intention...
...If the ratio of Jews to Arabs has not changed west of the Jordan River, that's the cumulative result of the rate of reproduction among Arabs, the rate of emigration among Arabs, the rate of reproduction among Jews and the rate of emigration and immigration among Jews, and if you change any one of these factors, then of course you change the turn of events...
...That terrible cycle of death and suffering must end...
...But these opportunities, like the previous ones, will not last forever...
...we've had enough of it...
...Nothing is more crucial than building on this momentum...
...He asserts that once the international issues in the Middle East are settled and there is peace in the region, there will be massive aliyah from the West, and that will take care of the demographic problem...
...The wisdom of the peace process must spring from recognition of these facts...
...We can't really talk this week without referring to the events in the Shatila and Sabra camps...
...The demographic problem: some people suggest that Israel has a choice between being secure and un-Jewish, or Jewish and insecure...
...People are getting used to it, to going to Beirut (Sharon has spent more tirne recently in Beirut than in Jerusalem...
...When they do, Israel then will have the chance to translate military strength into peace, the only long-term security...
...I'm a Jew, and I came to Israel because I'm a Jew, as did most other people there—but it just doesn't strike me as being a correct definition of Israeli society to define us as a Jewish society exclusively...
...Both here and in Israel, however, debate has begun bn these matters...
...Ostensibly they thereby did a service and a favor to Lebanon...
...For Lebanon, there is now a second chance...
...At least our institutions voted unanimously, and in the Knesset there was no need to work for Party discipline against this kind of reply to the Reagan speech...
...One section of the President's speech especially deserves reading word for word, because it did not appear in the text printed in the New York Times...
...Can we talk for a minute about the anomaly of Moshe Arens, who voted against Camp David, now objecting to a plan because it violates Camp David...
...But in all events, to talk...
...And so I think it is quite proper for Israel to say, "If you're taking that kind of position, how can we carry on these negotiations...
...the Egyptians have said that they must lead to self-determination of the Palestine state...
...It was discussed when Secretary Weinberger was in Israel, when the position paper was presented, and he talked to the Prime Minister about it, and later, discussed it again with the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister...
...If it takes more time, we are prepared for that...
...Should there not be a positive response, the President, as he has said in his letter to you...
...There will be, as I have said, no imposed solutions: Any point agreed upon by Israel and its Arab neighbors will not be opposed by us...
...Accordingly, we will not support such a solution...
...If you add to that the American position that the Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem should be included in the voting register for the self-governing authority, you've got another deviation...
...to talk about peace...
...A "New Realism" for Us All Thus for the Palestinians and other Arabs, and for Israel, this is indeed the moment, as the President said, for a "new realism...
...position in these negotiations on the extent of the withdrawal will be significantly influenced by the extent and nature of the peace and security arrangements offered in return...
...We've seen that all of these demographic forecasts so far have turned out wrong...
...I agree with that, although I do not like the terminology that's used—this business of having to choose between a Jewish Israel and something that's different...
...the issue is whether Israel intends to exercise permanent control over the West Bank and Gaza...
...No, I don't accept it...
...But it also implies a corollary: Those who fail to join will miss a precious opportunity—an opportunity for peace that may not come again soon...
...The passage was inserted by the President at the very last minute-after the press had received their copies...
...Just because Israel is such a free and open society, and just because it opens the door to education to young Palestinians, by virtue of doing that, it accentuates to them the fact that they don't have equal opportunities...
...That's one...
...If it is difficult to forecast the demographic statistics of the Arab population, it may be more difficult to forecast the demographic statistics of the Jewish population—in either direction, positive or negative...
...There's an interesting development among the Israeli Palestinian Arabs— a very rapid decline in the birth rate, which goes together with a higher level of education and women going to school, women going to work...
...It is not beyond the reach of diplomacy to create, nor of Israeli military power to ensure, that agreed arrangements for the West Bank will not erode over time...
...But if we make a mistake here, it could very well affect the existence of the State of Israel...
...You may find a very small percentage on each side of the spectrum—those who don't give a damn how big the demographic problem gets as long as Israel maintains control over all these areas, and those who don't give a damn what the security problems are—they want no part of it...
...These expressions of dissent on our part were sometimes blurred by the din of the war and the need for care because of the human issues at stake, but there was a consistent reservation against all of the escalatory phases and I think that has now stood the test...
...People are generally dumbfounded when they're told that from 1967 until today—that is now 15 years—there's been no change in the ratio of Jews to Arabs west of the Jordan River...
...In fact, I would say that the United States behaved rather improvidently if they had launched this speech without some indication that there is a possibility of Jordanian response, and that the Jordanians might bring some Palestinians with them...
...So basically, then, it's a choice of Arab sovereignty or Israeli sovereignty...
...The President is convinced his positions are fair and balanced and fully protective of Israel's security...
...We recognize the risks to all parties, but the risks of failure are even greater...
...He's not exposed to the fact that he's denied certain opportunities he might seek...
...Our commitment grows out of a sense of moral obligation but also out of strategic interest...
...I say the first treaty because there must be— and there will be—more to come...
...How do we build up a pluralistic society that doesn't lose its Jewish content—we wouldn't want to do that, of course— but that, nevertheless, takes cognizance of the fact that you will have, under any circumstances, a large Arab minority...
...Government reaction in Israel was quick and sharply critical...
...Unfortunately, if you look at the map, you see we're dealing with a very small territory and that the Arab population is distributed in such a manner that if you cut the area in half, and the part that is contiguous to Israel is given to Israel and the other half to Jordan, Israel's going to end up with most of the Arab population...
...If a Jew leaves South Africa, he has to make a decision: Is he going to go to the United States or is he going to Israel...
...I think it is very unpleasant to visualize Israel in future years based on a forecast that there will be no aliyah...
...My impression is that this was argued about, and that Begin, after considerable discussion, got that phrase used—"autonomy for the residents"—and he attached great significance to that phrasing right from the very beginning...
...On this, the Labor Party's view isn't a function of the Reagan plan...
...The President said this: "I have personally followed and supported Israel's heroic struggle for survival ever since the founding of the State of Israel 34 years ago...
...The tone of our politics is very disquieting...
...the Foreign Minister said it could not be a basis for discussion...
...There are clearly concessions to Israeli points of view and sensibilities...
...Economic, commercial, social and cultural ties between the West Bank, Gaza and Jordan...
...To talk about differences...
...I'm not saying that there's never room for breaking new ground, but you have to ask yourself a lot of questions when you're suggesting something that's never been done before...
...As the case is new, so we must think anew and act anew...
...I believe we're living in a mobile world and I think you can do something about it, maybe now more so than 20 years ago, or certainly 50 years ago...
...Two, the paper says the United States position is that the self-governing authority of the Palestinian inhabitants will take responsibility for internal security...
...It's declined by a whole percentage point or so in the last 10 or 15 years...
...Imagine the enormous contribution that the peoples of this region—so rich in spiritual strength— could make to all mankind...
...The President has said that we will not support such an outcome...
...believes that peace cannot be achieved on the basis of Israeli sovereignty over the West Bank and Gaza, but must be based on Resolution 242's formula of an exchange of territory for peace...
...So we don't really know what's going to happen...
...Camp David, in effect, went in that direction...
...Second, as stated in Camp David, there should be a transitional period of five years during which the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza should be permitted to exercise full autonomy...
...I'd even say that sounds very reasonable...
...We thought that it was solved around 1949 when an Israel emerged out of the war and the armistice agreements...
...So we see in that a serious deviation from the Camp David agreements...
...Today, the Arabs again have great opportunities: to move from belligerency to negotiation to peace and to work realistically and practically for the rights of the Palestinians...
...Bitterness dies hard, while trust grows slowly...
...After all, as Secretary Weinberger repeated on his recent trip—and he wasn't the first one to say it—there's no better security than peace...
...Our consultations with the Arab world will be designed to encourage such support...
...Everyone talks so much about peace that it requires some effort to stop and comprehend what it really can mean...
...Really very little, and I think that is probably true for the vast majority of people in Israel who share my opinions—without naming names, because I can't actually speak for anybody else...
...C. Next Procedural Steps Should the response to the President's proposal be positive, the U.S...
...In this spirit, and with the vision, self-confidence and mutual trust that has marked our relationship at its best moments, Israel and America—and our Arab friends, now and in the future—can shape a life of dignity, justice and true peace...
...And if, in addition, as the position paper says, the United States will not support any extra-territorial status for Jewish settlements—and this includes all Jewish settlements, whether in the Jordan valley or in Gush Etzion or wherever in this area, in effect, you have a problem...
...I also believe that once that document has been signed, once that vehicle has been established for peacemaking in the Middle East, we had better not abandon it, because if we do, it might take another 30 years before we find another one...
...And we have the deepest duty and obligation to ask for no less...
...I think that one thing we in Israel have been late to recognize is that we must buildup, under any circumstances, even in the territory included in the pre-'67 borders, a pluralistic society...
...Once such international commitments have been made, I certainly don't make light of them, whether they be made by Israel—with some degree of dissent as is almost inevitable in a democratic society—or whether they're made by Egypt...
...Two bad solutions, and one has to choose the least bad solution...
...in other words, Sadat, and maybe Carter at the time, wanted to have East Jerusalem included in the same category as Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and Israel was very set on making sure that Jerusalem was separate from Judea, Samaria and Gaza...
...I never telephoned him then or on any other occasion in all my life...
...People inevitably tend to look upon the Middle East as they would upon the Middle West: With only a little bit of reason, with some readiness to compromise, you can find a solution...
...to talk about aspirations...
...There will be no peace without Israeli security, but Israel will never be secure without peace...
...The path of rejection has achieved nothing but tragedy, particularly for the Palestinians...
...Surely, the pattern of agonies of this capable and courageous people must not be repeated...
...But the French colonial power, for reasons of its own, enlarged it by adding hundreds of thousands of Moslems— in fact, people who were not Lebanese in the authentic meaning of the term— and they then called it "Greater Lebanon," "Le Grand Liban"—an interesting parallel to "Eretz Yisrael Hashlemah...
...That is why the United States particularly asked that the parties themselves not preclude possible outcomes by concrete and perhaps irreversible actions undertaken before the process of negotiation is completed...
...That's why our party divided its attitude to the operation...
...This again is something that was not in Camp David, where Jerusalem was assigned a special category...
...What then, of the Benelux plan that Eban has proposed, some sort of loose confederation of three national entities, for which there is precedent...
...It's wrong to draw analogies from his attitude on the Egyptian opportunity, where he did take a tactical position...
...that's really Zionism...
...After a quarter-century of sterile conflict and confrontation, the past decade has seen a building momentum towards peace...
...So that's the background...
...In fact, the word "Revisionism" is much more accurate than people believe...
...He stated last week that the United States needs Israel more than Israel needs the United States and there have been other such statements, including of course the famous intemperate reaction to Ambassador Lewis...
...I am not about to ask Israel to live that way again...
...And the strange thing is that this is the first time in history that a country has turned its back on the principle that enabled it both to be born and to assert its place within the international system...
...We feel that this is a serious compromise in America's position as a mediator...
...But the Israeli government is forcing the issue, both by its juridical commitment and even more by what it is trying to do on the ground—that is, by trying to disrupt the Arab continuity of the area...
...together with the other parties we should all come together to discuss and negotiate these matters...
...It was put in because the President wanted to speak from his heart to the people of Israel...
...That's why normally between these two poles some kind of middle road compromise should be found...
...First, there should be full safeguards for Israeli security, both internal and external, throughout the transitional period and beyond...
...I ades, they rejected the legitimacy of the boundaries within which Israelis lived so insecurely prior to 1967...
...What may start as King Hussein's rule, which may be benign and benevolent, may end up being Arafat's or Arafat's successor, who'll rule out of Amman even if he doesn't rule out of Nablus or Jerusalem...
...Because the government feels that it represents very serious deviations from the Camp David agreement...
...What of the coarsening of Israeli society as a consequence of occupation that is so often noted, that is part of the price one pays for security, that comes back to haunt you by making you insecure in other respects...
...It slid on the time scale, came up with this autonomy scheme...
...would take immediate steps to relaunch the autonomy negotiations with the broadest possible participation as envisaged under the Camp David agreements...
...those who want large modifications of the '67 boundaries and those who would be satisfied with the essential bedrock changes— those differences are not relevant at the moment...
...So why worry about secure borders...
...I do wish they would honor us sometimes with a visit to Israel...
...There should be five elements there...
...and I repeat again, we are talking...
...You said earlier, using the Alon plan as an illustration, that you are skeptical about it because (a) it's unprecedented and (b) it's manifestly unacceptable to any of the partners...
...he is the architect of it...
...It has been said by the Americans that America is a full partner in the Camp David process, and therefore what is permissible to Israel and to Egypt, namely, making statements about the ultimate status— which is specifically excluded from the Camp David process, except for its referral to the procedure for determining that status—is permissible to America...
...This is the first time, at least in recent memory, perhaps the first time ever, that there has been so clear a non-acceptance of an Israeli position by significant sectors of American Jewish leadership...
...it's against that background that I judge the other alternative, which I judge to be worse, at least now, at the present time...
...If I ever felt that my desire to assure a safe and a prosperous and an advanced Israel was inconsistent with the borders for which I think we ought to be opting, I wouldn't be opting for those borders...
...D. Self-Determination In the Middle East context the ter self-determination has been identified exclusively with the formation of a Palestinian state...
...But, as has been obvious to all, the stalemate in the autonomy talks over the past two or more years, and the outbreak of major military conflict this past summer, pose a grave threat to further progress...
...Frazer has an Ambassador in Lebanon, I presume...
...the Labor opposition in Israel has been quite supportive...
...Relief from the horrible burden of war can unleash the full development of human potential, promising even greater creativity in the arts and sciences...
...determination that concrete, iron-clad arrangements for the security of Israel accompany the ultimate resolution of the Palestinian question is heightened, not diminished, by the fact that we have views on a desirable direction for the negotiations...
...But I think that when we look at the Alon plan or at a plan that says nobody should have sovereignty, we are really looking at configurations that do not even appear on the event space of the real world...
...The Challenge to the Arabs The President has offered a fundamental challenge to the Arabs as well...
...In other words, even if the United States didn't care, or even wanted us to annex or control permanently the West Bank and Gaza, we would be against it...
...Those are two separate and different things...
...And now he rehabilitates somebody who doesn't deserve rehabilitation...
...For the moderate Arabs, there is the opportunity to demonstrate that the course of negotiations can produce results and serve their vital interests...
...If you said, "Let's do a Solomonic judgment and cut the territory in half," I'd say that's been done before...
...I knew Yigal Alon well and I was a great admirer of his, but I don't think the Alon plan is a real plan in the sense that you can expect it to be acceptable to any other partner...
...Israel was opposed, right from the beginning of the post-Camp David negotiations, to having the Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem participate in the election...
...Begin doesn't have a right to invite the Australian Prime Minister to Lebanon...
...5. Progressive Palestinian responsibility for internal security based on capability and performance...
...And on the other side of the coin, I think you have to give us very high 'grades...
...Is that your judgment as well...
...The U.S...
...I think we do that no less than anybody else and maybe the events that came after the massacre are the best proof of it...
...Here again, the Israeli position is that the Reagan plan is a deviation, and a serious deviation, from Camp David...
...But Israel has shown that it can handle many things...
...We cannot invite a guest to somebody else's home...
...But back then, I would guess, it wasn't the security issues that moved you to adopt an anti-partition position...
...Those words are rather more delicately chosen than the words with which the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister responded to the Reagan proposal...
...That is exactly what is involved in Israel taking to itself the equivalent of 30 percent of its total population in the form of people who neither owe nor have any obligation to owe the slightest sentiment or devotion or allegiance or affection or respect for the Israeli flag and all that it embodies...
...What I think he and Sharon want is to have the advantages of annexation without the disadvantages—in other words, a de facto domination which excludes the 1.3 million Arabs from their due role within Israeli society without giving them anything at all of an independent framework...
...The consequent inevitability is suppression and disintegration...
...I think we ought to pay him the tribute of sincerity here...
...Peace can mean fruitful economic cooperation between Israel and her neighbors...
...And then we went to Ismailia and began...
...For 40 years, from 1937 to 1977, the doctrine of the Zionist movement and the State was the doctrine of partition...
...Such a solution must be sought, either in the event space—like the Alon plan, or Dayan's plans, or plans that nobody will have sovereignty or a plan to divide functions from jurisdiction—or they're sought on the time scale by temporizing, by saying we'll handle it in some other way...
...Let's imagine that there's been some kind of natural disaster, an avalanche, some hurricane, which for a year prevents any communication between America and Israel, nothing can pass from one to the other, no people, no money, no credit, no food, no oil, no bombs, no nothing...
...If Israel's adversaries want peace and justice they must recognize, clearly and explicitly, the right of the State of Israel to exist, and they must enter, as President Reagan said, "direct, hard and fair" negotiations with Israel...
...My experience is that if you have a political philosophy that is unbalanced, the expression of it is likely to be strident...
...Why not move towards that kind of precedent...
...Is that a fair statement...
...B. Israeli Sovereignty It is our belief that the Palestinian problem cannot be resolved |through] Israeli sovereignty or control over the West Bank and Gaza...
...That being so, our position should be disengagement...
...Sixteen percent of the population is Arab, and so, to keep talking about a Jewish state almost by implication means that in some way or other you're excluding 16 percent of the population...
...It didn't have to be solved for five years, according to Camp David...
...From which position he retired in order to conclude the agreement with Egypt...
...and more than 300 in 1982...
...There is every evidence that the President and his advisors regard the initiative as a major undertaking, one for which they will lobby energetically in the months ahead...
...It's the sort of document that should have been signed by somebody who believes in a solution that is neither completely Palestinian nor completely Israeli, but something in which Israel's security is reconciled with Palestinian nationhood...
...There is no need now to agree on any principle but one—that is the need to come together at the bargaining table...
...So you haven't solved any kind of problem, right...
...hopefully it could handle this as well...
...But, when I say all that, I say it with the conviction that aliyah from the United States is not like the weather— something everybody talks about and nobody can do anything about...
...Lebanon is not our country...
...If it turns out that this is a mistake by the United States, it's not going to affect the bodies of 200 million Americans...
...But my own view is that there's a limited amount of time you can push this thing off...
...it must not be abandoned...
...In addition, moment interviewed Moshe Arens, Israel's Ambassador to the United States (on September 28), and Abba Eban, formerly Israel's Foreign Minister and now a member of the Labor opposition in the Knesset (on September 17...
...Once you get the residents of East Jerusalem voting in the election, you're in effect putting them in the same category as the residents of Judea, Samaria and Gaza...
...The President has urged consideration of his proposals in the context of negotiations, to be undertaken without preconditions and with no thought of imposed solutions...
...I find it hard intellectually to understand how Begin signed it...
Vol. 7 • November 1982 • No. 10
