MOMENT INTERVIEW WITH JOHN WHO?
MOMENT INTERVIEW WITH JOHN WHO? It is hard to know how Israel is perceived these days. America's Jews, for whom the defense of Israel's interests remains a central commitment, wonder and worry...
...If you want to prove that you care about human rights, there's still plenty to do here...
...When 1 read of the disagreements, I tend to worry whether there is the kind of stability within Israel that will permit it to define and carry out coherent policies, or whether internal divisions may not give the world the excuse to say that since Israel can't agree on one approach, we can decide what's best for them...
...Are these issues, the issues of the Palestinians and of Israel's security, of Lebanon and of the Middle East, priority issues with the people you meet and talk with...
...But whether or not that's the reason, nobody is blaming the scarcity on Israel...
...If there has been an erosion, it is for other reasons...
...And they use that power as a way of making the UN into a forum to heap criticism on Israel and to call for the recognition of Palestinian rights...
...Could you list some of those reasons...
...Jesse Jackson is a man who does enjoy the spotlight, and maybe he or some of the others thinks that this business can be used as a catapult to a special position...
...That sells it short...
...No one should be expected to agree 100 percent of the time...
...So we now have a generation which was educated during the years of protest...
...Since 1964, the turnover has been very substantial...
...We have high unemployment and high inflation at the same time...
...As Israel became stronger militarily and less beleaguered, sympathies did shift...
...Remember the story of the octogenarian Zionist who finally got to make his first trip to Israel...
...I'm very upset that the President waited so long before making it clear that it was not Jewish leaders who brought about Andrew Young's resignation...
...You've got close ties to your constituents, and for a while now you've been campaigning around the country...
...But there's another and related issue here we shouldn't lose sight of, and that is the rising power of the Third and Fourth World, of the so-called developing nations, and it's because of that rising power, in the main, that we've seen such things as the equation of Zionism with racism or the conferring of legitimacy on Arafat by Kreisky and Brandt...
...That brings us quite naturally to the issue of the current rift between blacks and Jews in this country...
...As long as we're stuck in the kind of economic rut we seem to be in right now, we're not going to be able to revive it...
...Vietnam is the war they remember, not World War II...
...Once you've been to the area, you're sensitive not only to the broad geo-strategic considerations, but to the simple geography of the place, and I can surely understand and accept that Israelis are not ready to transfer sovereignty over the West Bank to a new state, no matter what the guarantees may be...
...That's an awfully important resource, and I'm not sure that Israel's friends in this country make the most of it...
...That kind of over-dependence, consciously or subconsciously, creates in us a sense of jeopardy, leads to the view that we can't afford to lose the friendship of the supplier countries...
...In an effort to bolster support among non-Jews, we argue our case as vigorously as we can, but we do not know, with any precision, how effective are our arguments...
...Anderson's ads in New Hampshire read "John who...
...What advice can you give us about the case we should be making to the people "out there...
...But I do find that when I talk to country editors, the editors of small town weekly newspapers, they always ask about my Middle East policy...
...What about Israel's own behavior...
...John Anderson, the third-ranking Republican in the House of Representatives, in which he has served for twenty years, is as staunch a supporter of Israel as there is in Washington...
...For President...
...They forget, I suppose, that from my Sunday School days I've been taught that Abraham came out of Ur, the land of the Chaldees, and that God called him to be the father to a great nation, and all the rest...
...It's obvious that people can believe very deeply in the same fundamental cause and still propose different approaches...
...Maybe it's just a scramble for power or for publicity...
...After all, the Israelis who disagree with the government's policy are often people of very great stature, moral people who are thoroughly identified with the Zionist cause, and if they raise questions, you're bound to wonder...
...After the victory of 1967, much of the traditional sympathy for Israel began to dissipate...
...In my church, we are imbued with the tradition that the Jews are God's chosen people and the Israel would one day be redeemed...
...No, not if you're talking about the average citizen, the people you meet and chat with on the street or in the course of a discussion in someone's home...
...Out of 152 members in the United Nations, we have no more than 32 that can even remotely be considered democratic states...
...Anderson: That support goes all the way back to the creation of Israel by the United Nations...
...What you've got to bear in mind is that the basic American view of the role of man in the universe is one we share with the Israelis...
...Is Israel now paying for its success...
...In fact about 60 percent of the current members of the House were first elected in '74, '76, and '78...
...I should say that I've not detected, in any of those conversations—and I've had quite a few of them in the past several weeks—any resentment against Israel on the basis of the energy problem...
...The major thing is our dependence on Arab oil...
...Does the fact that there are differences within Israel give you an increased sense of freedom, of maneuverability...
...Generational change doesn't necessarily lead to a diminished respect and regard for Israel's position or for our commitment to support that country...
...I've been somewhat concerned, in my own case, that the fact that I come out of an Evangelical background and am the product of a very disciplined and very conservative tradition might lead some Jewish liberals to worry about me, to wonder whether I'm not dangerous, to suspect that I can't be a true friend to Israel...
...When I read about the Gush Emunim, a strident group that is outside the governing coalition but which is important in the domestic life of Israel, or when 1 read of the debate within Israel regarding settlements, a debate that even goes on inside Israel's cabinet, say between Sharon and Dayan, or when I see reports that prominent American Jews decry the settlement policy, I have some problems...
...On his return, his friends all crowded around to ask what he'd learned...
...But I don't think these leaders have a constituency within the black community that is ready to get so exercised about the Palestinian issue...
...We now import 44 percent of our oil, and about three-quarters of that comes from the OPEC countries, chiefly from the Middle East...
...I think that's why it's so hard these days to get young people excited about causes...
...I don't want to sound sententious, but this isn't just another political issue we're talking about...
...The others are one-party dictatorial regimes, and they have wildly disproportionate voting power in the United Nations...
...Historically, this country has had an annual growth rate of 2Vi to 3 percent...
...Yet Israel has to be seen as much more than another link in our world strategy...
...I think the average black person is more concerned about what can be done so that he will get a fair shake here at home...
...And that's in New England, which is so heavily impacted by reliance on imports for home heating oil...
...Might part of it be the sense that Israel no longer qualifies as an underdog...
...I certainly don't want to limit my appreciation of Israel to my sense of its relationship to Biblical prophecy...
...But such problems haven't eroded my basic faith in Israel's good intentions, in Israel's willingness to accept a solution that gives the Palestinians the right to determine their own destiny, without permitting the erection of a traditional nation state on its borders that would compromise its security...
...Do you share the view that is sometimes expressed that the Jewish community in this country is too monolithic...
...What emerges out of a conversation with John Anderson is that he knows our lies to be true...
...Despite EEO and OFFC and all the other alphabetical agencies, despite the fact that we are ten years into the Fair Housing Act of 1968, discrimination is still very much with us...
...A moment ago, you spoke about the dullness of the civil rights effort in this country...
...That has helped change the climate of world opinion, and it has affected attitudes in this country as well...
...Yes, that's clearly true...
...But because people are all tied up in their own affairs, are busy looking over their shoulders to make sure that the pink slip that comes with economic slowdown is meant for somebody else, they don't have the time to be concerned...
...I just don't think there's much you can do to strike that altruistic spark in the hearts of people under these conditions...
...When, therefore, we had the chance to talk at length with Anderson recently, we were especially interested in understanding the perceptions of this honorable—and powerful—man regarding Israel and the Middle East...
...There are sound strategic considerations behind America's support for Israel, but the undergirding principle is moral: The world could do no less than help that state to be created and protect it against the enemies which surround it...
...And the fact that they were able, under the conditions they faced, to create a democratic society is little short of a miracle...
...The debate does cause you to reconsider your own views in some measure...
...The fact is that I think Israel has real relevance to the world situation today, especially to the preservation of the democratic tradition and hope...
...There was real admiration as we watched Israel take shape...
...Back then, we were closer to the events of the Holocaust, and I suppose I had an appreciation of those events, of the extent to which the Jewish people suffered before and during World War II...
...The joint American-Soviet communique of October 1977, calling for the reconvening of the Geneva Conference, and the current effort by the administration to broaden the Israeli-Egyptian negotiations by bringing in representatives of the Palestinians—these things tend to loosen the special relationship we've had with Israel...
...People begin to say that while they support Israel and will continue to, the United States should re-examine its position with regard to the other Middle East countries, the ones we depend on for our oil...
...I'm concerned principally about the debate within Israel's government itself...
...Yet Anderson's record of support for Israel goes back to his earliest days in Congress, long before his recent announcement of candidacy for the Republican Presidential nomination...
...And there's still so much to be done...
...In a way, it was like watching the American experience, with people from all over the world, people of different backgrounds and cultures, coming together in one nation, bound together by their belief in that new nation...
...They're true...
...Moreover, there is likely no member of Congress who is more widely respected for his personal and political integrity than Anderson...
...Now, all of a sudden, we come to this decade and we discover a new phenomenon: stagflation...
...Well, there is a new generation in Congress...
...Dissent in America doesn't have the same implications, not at all...
...How do we deal with that...
...I'm thinking here especially of the debate between Dayan and Sharon...
...It's powerfully impressive...
...It has been something of a problem...
...So I may differ on one aspect of Israeli policy or another, but I accept their reluctance to consent to the creation of a Palestinian state...
...We're talking about the ultimate survival of a nation, and the issue is very profound...
...I like to think, of course, that I've got a somewhat more sophisticated view of Israel than that...
...As I see it, that debate carries the seeds of great trouble for Israel, because if the peace movement in this country, which is still very powerful, grabs hold of that issue, if it becomes convinced that Israel is engaging in greater force than is required, that Israel is guilty of aggression and is carrying out that aggression with American weapons, then I fear we would see a very dangerous erosion of support...
...Hence the simple calculus of political opportunism can be discounted in exploring Anderson's views...
...Have such things as the settlements on the West Bank made a difference to people, have they created problems for Israel's friends...
...And it seemed quite natural, under the circumstances, that Zionism would culminate in the creation of Israel...
...Well, it's obvious that not everybody in the American Jewish community is tolerant of dissent, and that there is too much suspicion that any deviation from the majority view means that you support Israel less...
...Even when the right words are spoken by others, we wonder whether those words are spoken with conviction or with a tongue forked by political opportunism...
...Now I think that when people have to give up on the idea of steady progress, that sours their charitable instincts, that leads them to a kind of privatism: they are concerned principally with protecting their own interests...
...Maybe that absence of resentment is because the number two oil that is used for home heating comes mostly from Venezuela rather than from the Middle East...
...I've been to Israel three times, and I've witnessed first hand the extent to which they literally did make the desert bloom, created industry where there was none before...
...Still, it's not just a question of sympathy for the plight of oppressed world Jewry...
...But they may have an even greater sensitivity and receptivity than my generation to the idea that human values are extremely important and that you don't judge the worth of a nation solely because of what it may contribute to the strategic balance...
...And now people's real disposable income is actually declining...
...It can't just be that they feel they've been left out of the foreign policy process...
...After all, Andrew Young was our Ambassador to the UN, and his successor is also black...
...That's Israel's strongest case so far as I'm concerned...
...I am much more concerned these days about the debate over Israel's use of American weapons in southern Lebanon...
...People who have that view may be reluctant to admit to it, but I believe it is an important factor...
...they blame the oil companies or the supplying countries, and the issue hasn't led to any anti-Israel feeling that I can see...
...When you are exposed to the debate within Israel, do you feel a measure of relief...
...But on the larger question, I still find it very difficult to comprehend why, with all the problems that still beset the black community in the United States—problems of equality of opportunity, of housing, of employment and all the rest—they want to go off on this Middle East tangent, involve themselves so deeply in an area that seems so remote from their own self-interest...
...I've sometimes wished that there wouldn't be so many issues which Israel's supporters defined as litmus tests of loyalty...
...At a time when so many of us have come to disbelieve our own rhetoric, to regard our own pronouncements as propaganda, it is refreshing and instructive to see ourselves through the eyes of a thoughtful other...
...America's Jews, for whom the defense of Israel's interests remains a central commitment, wonder and worry about the depth of non-Jewish commitment to Israel's safety...
...My hope is that our spirit hasn't been dulled so far that if we have another period of rising prosperity, of economic stability, interest won't be revived...
...So are some of the events that have taken place under the Carter administration...
...Mostly, we run scared...
...They lack the experience that I had of watching the tragedy of World War II unfold...
...If we can get back to Israel for a minute, how do you think those of us who care so deeply about Israel's welfare can best bring our concerns to other Americans...
...moment: Can you step back from the day-to-day problems of the Middle East and summarize for us the underlying basis of your support for Israel...
...On other occasions, you've spoken of a general decline in civic concern...
...John Anderson...
...But what a shame that is, so long as the old cause still requires as much attention as it does...
...How do you get people back to work for the common good...
...I think of myself as an ardent supporter of Israel, and it's irritating to feel that you're being tested anew each time an issue arises...
...it's a minor irritant at worst...
...You know," he replied, "all those lies we've been telling all these years...
...I haven't any doubt that if general war were to come to that region, Israel would be the one state America could rely on...
...But I don't believe that's a major issue...
...Here you had the worst environmental conditions, and still a democratic form of government was established and brought to life...
...How do you react to the developments on that front...
...Is the view you've just expressed shared by your colleagues in Congress, especially the younger ones, or do you sense an erosion of support on die Hill...
...The Illinois district which he represents is not exactly a thriving center of Jewish population: Rockford, the largest city in the district, has about one thousand Jews...
...You know, the cutting edge of the civil rights movement in this country has become dull, and maybe there are people looking for a new cause...
...You've also got to take into consideration the controversy over the use of American weapons in southern Lebanon, which does create a certain uneasiness among people who have traditionally supported Israel...
Vol. 4 • November 1979 • No. 10
