A Moment Interview

...I never would have contemplated it...

...I do see a lot of very impressive people in the business world, in the political world in New York, in the banking world, and so forth, who are not always directly involved in leadership, and I'm quite sure would be...

...I agree that something is wrong, and I don't know what's wrong myself...

...I think one has to be careful, with all due respect to the academic community here...

...Nobody did...

...I can only talk about it from my own point of view...

...One of them said that when they come to think of it, Israel had the privilege of really standing up for freedom in the United Nations, and when they forget all the political nuances of the line, of the position they have to take, we are the real fighters for freedom today...

...Some of the reactions of the American Jewish leadership in the past few years that I've been here, on issues which brought them into conflict, or potential conflict, with the Administration, such as you would not have seen in the past here, are very proud reactions, very, very proud reactions...

...Israelis travel a great deal and they all come to the United States, and they all go to Washington, and they all appear to have meetings with Brzezinski and others...

...This is a development that I have seen...

...In other words, I see absolutely nothing wrong in a Jewish debate going on in Israel, not only an Israeli debate...

...Many of our people have been pushed, whether they like it or not, into a conservative view of the world almost against their wish...

...I would not like to see us closed off from the Jewish people, saying, "This is ours, we do what we want to do and no one else has any say...

...As this ambassador of a very respectable country said yesterday, "Your fight is the fight for freedom...

...In other words, while they could not, for various political reasons, or expediency, or cynicism, or whatever you like, go along with us on many issues, they, in their heart of hearts, realize that in our fight today, in our struggle today, we represent much more than what we physically represent...

...Has it been difficult for you to live with the constraints that a diplomat must live with, operating under instruction...

...Basically this youth is expressing the sort of nationalism that many of the people in Israel would like to see expressed...

...Add to that the attitude of the Soviet Union, the Eastern block, the fact that we've been pushed...

...I was the only one...

...You've got to remember today that it really does say a lot for the dynamism of the Orthodox education that it created the best system of education we've got in Israel, and produced a very fine type of youth...

...But it appeared, apparently I heard that the correspondent had some vendetta with the Israeli ambassador in Bonn, and this was his way of going after him...

...That's very, very disturbing indeed...

...Remember, too, that much of the nationalism in Israel in the past years, has become quite traditional, with the same disenchantment towards it which has affected the whole world, not only Israel—a disenchantment with modern socialism, or the socialism of the founding fathers...

...So there we are...

...Fund raising is of course a very central function, although I believe that the fund raisers would be doing a lot better for themselves and for the Jewish people if they would devote themselves not only to fund raising but to Jewish consciousness...

...The assumption is becoming that these intelligent people will be more committed if they get more sustenance from a knowledge and discussion of the issues...

...CH: No, I don't think so...

...an Israeli dialogue going on in Israel, but also a Jewish debate going on in Israel, because I see our fate tied up one with the other...

...It's a positive attitude because we in Israel tend to stew too much in our own juice, from the point of view of public debate...

...CH: Very much so...

...Frankly, I didn't see it, but I do know that's my impression, too...

...It's a fiercely expressive sort of press, and not all of it adheres to the best standards of journalism...

...Basically, the Jewish community in every country reflects the society in which it lives, and a certain type of people rise to leadership in every country, and the same type is reflected in the Jewish community, as well...

...Do you share that dismal view...

...People imagine that there is dissension in Israel when there is a debate, public debate, which is normal, just as you have here...

...CH: No, it's not a theory that you own Congress, but there is a feeling that the Jewish vote and Jewish strength will achieve what it's impossible to achieve by other means...

...MOMENT INTERVIEW WITH CHAIM HERZOG moment: You're-about to leave after three years of service at the UN and a good deal of contact with the American Jewish community in what has been an especially eventful period...

...You must fight back...

...I've been involved, from a public point of view, in universities in Israel, boards of governors, and things like that, and I've concluded that being an academician does not necessarily qualify one for public life...

...Now on many issues, one may or may not agree with them, but I think that they reflect in many ways the desire to move away from what may have been seen as a groping in the darkness for new idols and to move back to the conservative system that they knew and respected, to move away from the permissive society...

...Today, of course, that has changed to a great degree...

...It had never arisen in anybody's mind in the government, because it was quite clear that I was in for this job for a period of time, and that was it...

...What I don't see is alarming...

...Even leaving aside the obvious problems, that we've never managed adequately to mobilize the intellectual resources of the American Jewish community, the academic world, and so forth, do you share the feeling that it's a little bit too monolithic, too socially and culturally closed...

...But it just showed me what was going on, and it's all coming out now, as they say farewell, how much they appreciated me and how much they, in a way, envied us our freedom to do what we're doing...

...The director was Bill Korey of the B'nai B'rith, and it worked quite well...

...One got the impression that the Jewish community was much more proud of its Jewishness, more open and much more courageous about it, and much less self-effacing and self-conscious about it...

...I said that we'd been through a holocaust and we wouldn't allow another people to go through a holocaust without reacting...

...I had a classic example just recently...

...CH: You want to divide between fund raising and the other organizations...

...Apparently, if you've not seen Brzezinski, you're not considered an important person in the Israeli political setup, and next best to Brzezinski is, of course, meeting with the Jewish leadership or the President's Conference, and they hear a few remarks and they all return great experts on American Jewry when in fact, not many of them understand American Jewry...

...M: Rabbi Schindler was recently quoted as having said in Israel that American Jewry stands solidly with the Begin government...

...M: And what were the most striking developments...

...It doesn't go against it, but it certainly doesn't qualify...

...Some lean more to tradition, some more to modern society, but the type of student produced by Bar flan University is in fact a bridge, and this is a very, very interesting social educational phenomenon which is going on in the Jewish world, which has not been sufficiently noticed until now...

...I remember when I was at the university, you would not see a Jewish boy walking around with a kippah...

...How long had it been since your last tour of duty in this country...

...I think that would be very short sighted...

...It seems to me that we here know our own community better, and we haven't been able to figure out how to do it ourselves, and it's unlikely that Israelis will be able to solve the problem for us, and maybe unhealthy that we should think they can, or want them to...

...Period...

...Not a single country in the world took it on...

...M: For years, at least since 1948, probably since before, there has been conversation about Israel-diaspora relations and it's clear that the partnership, while it's emotionally a very firm partnership, is organizationally and institutionally not terribly well worked out or thought through...

...Reading the Israeli press you imagine that we have a terrible society in Israel, and one wonders how one can live in such a place...

...CH: I think you are entitled to say a lot...

...M: Would you argue against any serious reduction in Israel's presence in the UN...

...Just filthy journalism...

...It does not necessarily give one the qualifications for being involved in public leadership...

...M: Given the secularism of the American Jewish community in what we would normally call its mainstream, its most visible components, does the prospect of an increasingly Orthodox Israeli society create problems...

...There are certain aspects of Israeli policy which, in the final analysis, we have to bear the brunt of, on which, at times, we become touchy about people abroad expressing themselves...

...CH: Well, first of all I would say that there was a very considerable increase in, not necessarily Jewish consciousness, but in the public expression of Jewish consciousness...

...Israelis like to travel...

...Fifty percent of the youth that wants to go on settlement—which was traditionally the task of the Labor movement—is now Orthodox...

...I say this because in Israel, there are certain quarters which have this traditional respect for learning, and they conclude that because somebody is a professor, and he may be a professor in the biology of mosquitos in Central Asia, that automatically makes him a spokesman on international affairs...

...You're not defending a policy...

...We're not going to get much change in the Jewish community here...

...Repeating such basics...

...Nobody had ever talked to me about it...

...M: One of the bases of your personal reputation is as an uncommonly outspoken, candid person...

...Nobody in the United Nations has ever argued with me about any specific policy of the Government of Israel...

...For instance, there's no real issue whether or not a particular settlement should have been established at this time or not...

...Israel maintains that we are the great protagonists of the tomorrow, of the great new society...

...The leadership is more representative in many ways of the broad mass of the Jewish people...

...And my answer was that I would suggest doubling every Israeli mission in the United States today, including of course, the United Nations...

...I was very pleased to see that on many occasions now, the content of a fund raising event is to talk about our problems, about Jewish problems, and not to engage directly in fund raising...

...And yet we find that all the new left and their followers are, in fact, characterizing us and putting us in the classification of the conservative society, the conservative nations...

...M: Doesn't fighting at the UN seem ludicrous, after a time...

...We represent ideas and a problem in the world, a universal problem, and they respect us for doing that...

...On many occasions, Western ambassadors have come to me and told me that they wish that they were as free as we are in the UN...

...CH: Well, I must say that in fairness, I've been given a lot of freedom, because the truth is that it's not so difficult to give me freedom in the United Nations, where you're defending our right to exist all the time...

...Many people are looking for a synthesis of modern society and tradition...

...M: One of the things I find most striking, by way of developments in the Jewish community here in the last decade or so, is the extraordinary staying power, and more, of Orthodoxy...

...Is that your impression...

...And now when we had these issues that really required the leadership to stand up to the Administration, I found Rabbi Schindler very impressive, indeed, and striking in his leadership...

...The issue was, as I have pointed out, never one of the settlements...

...CH: I don't know what Rabbi Schindler said...

...At the same time, we see the vision of Israel, that from Zion shall go forth the Law, the word of God from Jerusalem...

...I can't, for the life of me, see any purpose today in reducing the Israeli establishment in this country, at this critical stage...

...I would like to see a major thrust being made towards the Israeli emigrants, they'ridah...

...What are we entitled to say about developments within Israel...

...I can't talk about it from the national point of view...

...I would like you to say what you want in Israel—more in Israel, less abroad—let me put it that way...

...M: There is a theory that the American Jews own Congress...

...I was here during the time of both Rabbi Miller and Rabbi Schindler, and their reactions were strong, were impressive...

...You must stand up, and I want you to know that yesterday, two ambassadors gave me farewell receptions, both from Western countries, one at lunch and one at dinner...

...CH: The political power...

...I read the other day that Zevulun Hammer, who is a young leader, a rising leader of the National Religious Party, has come out in favor of opening up the National Religious Party to conservative elements and even to non-Orthodox elements who are willing to support a religious party...

...When I needed help, when I needed to involve the Jewish community in issues arising in the General Assembly or United Nations, I got a ready response from the President's Conference...

...CH: Well I don't know if it's ludicrous or not...

...Furthermore, I can still remember from the earlier time that you had a patrician leadership of the American Jewish community, main line Jewish families, a Jewish Ivy League...

...When a leader of the Jewish community goes on Israeli television, as happened recently, or gives an interview, or writes in the Israeli press, and says, "You're wrong for this reason: you're misevaluating the U.S...

...I must tell you that I think it's important to fight when you're being fought against...

...I am sometimes impressed with the degree to which the new generation, or the rising generation, of leaders is Jewishly better grounded than its predecessor, and I am sometimes, nonetheless, depressed and frustrated by the degree to which it is still a relatively monolithic leadership, an aristocracy of wealth and of organizational involvement...

...I was the only ambassador to speak up about Cambodia almost a year and a quarter ago...

...Maybe a point of entry here might be a very specific thing— the chairman of the Jewish Agency has proposed that there be kind of an Israeli plan to save Jewish education in the United States...

...In other words, it took itself much more naturally, and this of course, is a very healthy development...

...M: Does the President's Conference work right...

...Of course, some of them really are experts on it...

...There is a tremendously impressive young leadership that I see, which is brought up by Bonds and UJA, and these people are very successful and very committed, and as I said, are even more open about their Jewish commitment than their predecessors may have been, vis a vis the non-Jewish element...

...I suppose the same thing happens here, but because we are so small, it's all concentrated, and then the ludi-crousness of it really emerges...

...So don't be surprised if the adverse aspects of Jewish life are always emphasized in the Israeli press...

...It's terribly encouraging to see this farewell, not because of the personal aspect, which, of course, is very satisfying and gratifying, but to see that basically we mean something, and we've become a concept in liberty and a concept in freedom...

...On the other hand, you begin to feel—I at times feel— to a degree, the debate is removed from the arena of world Jewry...

...In other words, they are very much aware of the strength of American Jewry...

...He just has to fight back and defend us on very basic issues, and the differences in nuance in Israeli politics have no expression here whatsoever...

...CH: Well, in Israel it is only the bad news in general which tends to be disseminated...

...There are differences of opinion about Israeli politics...

...But it's been exactly twenty years since I was last here for a time, and so it gave me an opportunity to see the developments which have occurred in the meantime...

...The truth is, again, there is a subconscious understanding of the strength of American Jewry in Israel, too, and while they may not describe, say, the universities, when Begin goes to get a degree at Yeshiva University or somebody else gets a degree at Brandeis or The Jewish Theological Seminary, they suddenly see that there are universities...

...It's true, also, you have this very impressive academic community, Jewish academic community—tremendous—which is also not used to the degree that it might conceivably be used...

...I regret to say that...

...At the beginning there were various problems, but they set up a UN Task Force that worked...

...I think that I've been very impressed really, by the staying power of Orthodoxy, not only here but in Israel...

...What I do see is impressive, is proud, is positive...

...There's been a great disenchantment with that...

...I've been in many small communities in South America, as well as throughout the world, where Israel helps with teachers and with emissaries and so forth, but I believe that the American intellectual community could do a lot more for itself than it really does, and I doubt that it needs so much help from Israel as has been alleged here...

...I wouldn't expect Jews not to have a view about these issues and there are plenty of means of expressing themselves, in Israel, which I believe they not only have a right to do, but a duty to do...

...And again, I was greeted with complete silence...

...There was a report published in one of the leading newspapers that I was going to be the next ambassador to Germany...

...The migration from Israel is first of all a public reproach to Israel, and to Israeli society...

...M: We read about ourselves in the Israeli press...

...Otherwise, you can pack up...

...They don't understand the process of democracy...

...This is the reason, of course, for the increase in strength in the various councils of Israel which the Orthodox have achieved...

...CH: Well, my experience with the President's Conference has been good...

...Has that been part of your experience...

...According to what we read, we are a community in grave crisis—the rate of intermarriage, the poverty of Jewish education, and so forth...

...We have a big education problem in Israel...

...Of course, I'd been back on visits in between...

...Chaim Herzog: I'd been on a tour of duty about twenty years before...

...When I was asked about this publically in Israel, I said, "I can't comment on what the minister will or will not do...

...M: The general strength or the political power...

...I would like to see the Agency in Israel concentrating on our problems first of all...

...M: You've had a great deal of interaction with American's Jewish organizational leadership, and it's a leadership, obviously, in transition, as you say, from a kind of an Ivy League patrician mold to something which I find still hard to define...

...I was attacked by the Chinese for daring to do this...

...You asked me for my impression...

...I would expect the Arabs to misread us...

...But that's the way of life...

...At times I become horrified, how many times I've read the same thing from the same writer, again and again, in the same journal, in the same newspaper...

...They tend to exaggerate it grossly...

...There was no basis whatsoever for the report...

...Although I must say that the academic community tends to remain on the side, not only in Jewish affairs, but also in national affairs, and that's a fact I've always maintained, to the intense annoyance of my colleagues in the academic world in Israel...

...I had never contemplated it...

...They tend to be misread, just the same as the normal process of democracy in Israel is misread here, to my utter amazement...

...M: I have the impression that in Israel it is only the bad news about the American Jewish community that tends to be disseminated, and the good news, which is the news with which we began, is relatively unknown...

...Of course, in increasing it, it must have not only the quantity, but also the quality...

...So you have the prospect of a very rapid decline of the Jewish population in numbers, and this is very concerning and very disturbing indeed...

...When you're being attacked, you've got to fight back...

...CH: Yes...

...In both cases, the farewell speeches were very moving...

...Now, we have a lot to put right ourselves...

...What's your judgment...

...I would expect the Russians to misread us...

...M: Whether on the basis of shared values, shared traditions, or on the basis of financial investment, are there areas of diaspora entitlement in Israel...

...So we believe we should be helping communities throughout the world...

...CH: It's really a very difficult issue...

...The issue was Tel Aviv or Haifa, and therefore, from this point of view, the United Nations is a very easy post for an Israeli ambassador...

...My impression is gauged not by what I don't see, but what I do see...

...It is also a function of the new assertive pride with which particularly the Jewish youth express themselves throughout the United States, and everywhere in the diaspora...

...This should be exercizing not only Israel, but the Agency...

...It should be a major function of the Agency to try to correct something here...

...government's attitude," or whatever it is, in my view, that's positive...

...I would say that from time to time, there are expressions of disagreement with Israel on this aspect of policy or that aspect of policy, but when the chips are down and when we are under attack, I find that the history of the last thirty or forty years always comes to the fore in Jewish consciousness, now more than ever before, and one gets the reaction which seems to me to indicate that we really do have American Jewry behind us...

...They're doing it, and they're doing it increasingly, and that is a very positive development...

...Of course, as in the past, there were still many young people hiding or even denying their Jewishness, but the positive aspects were the ones that impressed me, the standard of Jewish education, the higher Jewish education which had developed in this country, all of this...

...In fact, if I were to analyze it correctly, I believe that they tend to exaggerate the strength of American Jewry...

...The other one, a man from a very large, very important country in the world today, said that our stand on the defense of many issues, despite the fact that they didn't always agree with us, put them often to shame...

...On the one hand, in Israel you have a society which is a free, democratic society, which has an active debate...

...But I can never understand why the Americans misread us on this issue...

...I find that absurd, on the face of it...

...CH: There is this aspect which I don't see...

...Furthermore, fifty percent of the immigrants from the free world, who come of their own volition, on aliyah, are Orthodox...

...It doesn't...

...I also found a great many of the youth openly proclaiming their Jewishness, wearing kipot, ready to be identified...

...Namely, there is the question of assimilation and the fact that the Jewish birth rate is below, far below, the level which could keep the Jewish population at its present level, even if there were no assimilation...

...So they said, "But, if the minister were to ask you, what would you do...

...First of all, I think there is a concomitant growth in the States, although it might receive a different expression here...