MOMENT Interview:

Eliav, Arie

MOMENT INTERVIEW WITH ARIE BIAV REFLECTIONS OF ISRAEL'S LEADING DOVE ON THE BEGIN GOVERNMENT AND THE AMERICAN JEWISH COMMUNITY Moment: You are widely regarded as Israel's number one dove these...

...Did you get similar expressions from the community in general...
...Begin won't eat them for breakfast...
...So they should tell it to him...
...Territory...
...about keeping Israel strong, we'll be with you...
...E: Courage...
...They have to be willing to say, "What I want is for the good of Israel...
...It's not that the Palestinians are slaves...
...Our society is already changing because of it...
...How did it all start...
...M: Any Arabs...
...I ran for the Knesset three times on the Labor ticket...
...What kinds of people...
...I've now been here three weeks, and I think I know what the leadership of the American Jewish community thinks...
...Just now, this seems to be the major stumbling block...
...E: We think we have an answer for that...
...E: It may be a step forward for Begin, but in political reality it's a non-starter...
...And we'll help you...
...Is that a lonely place to be...
...Let the American Jews also be courageous...
...We won't find it tomorrow, we'll not find partners on their side tomorrow, but one way or another, we must find a solution...
...E: I think you have to start at the beginning...
...Not all of it, but there is no doubt that continued support of Israel is very strong...
...And in supporting that kind of solution, we believe that we follow in the footsteps of Jewish thinking, of Zionist thinking, of Jewish moralist teaching...
...Imagine what it would mean if we were to continue indefinitely, or for a very long time, the occupation, this rule over more than a million people whom we have now ruled for ten years...
...Because otherwise, there is no solution at all...
...But, there are certain things that make your position, and our position as American Jews, unbearable...
...Why should we in Israel be expected to be the only courageous Jews...
...And American Jews should now play a much greater role in telling Begin what they think...
...It's more than that...
...The word sensitive is inbred in the process of negotiation...
...E: Well, I think that a great leader molds the constituency, not the other way around...
...The war in Vietnam was not a life-or-death issue in America, 10,000 miles away...
...M: How would you assess the role of the Labor party on this issue...
...But after the 1967 war, about 1969 or 1970,1 began to develop my "dovish" policies, and I began a parting of the way with Golda Meir...
...You can't keep it with civilian settlements, with kindergarten children...
...Now this has been our concept for ten years...
...I don't have enough strong words to denounce it...
...M: So you're saying that many of the leaders you've talked to are agreeing with your position, even if only in private...
...Actually, out of our 30,000 votes, about 4,000 were from Israeli Arabs—which is roughly in the same proportion as their numbers in the general population...
...After the war, I remained in Europe where I was one of the organizers of the illegal immigration efforts...
...We say that from a historical point of view, from a moral point of view, the whole of the Land of the Bible—Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, even parts that are today Jordan—all of it is ours...
...Many more people today realize that is it the issue, and that we'll not solve our problems here until this issue is settled...
...All in all, after a year of being out of power, they haven't learned very much...
...But it became a symbolic issue...
...You asked about loneliness...
...Is there an opposition in the Knesset...
...Some people say that these are sacred places, especially the West Bank—Judea and Samaria...
...Labor is divided in its own midst between hawks and doves...
...As you pointed out, at the beginning, following the Sadat initiative, he seemed to be headed toward some movement in his personal philosophy...
...And we, who had always been diametrically opposed to him, came to the Knesset and we said, "Go ahead...
...But they are non-citizens...
...There were some cartoons and jokes in the press that said he was really a Sheli man, but that years ago we planted him in Likud so that when he became Prime Minister, he'd come out of hiding...
...But obviously, I'm no longer close to where the decisions are made...
...E: I have a good sample...
...They told me, and you can quote it...
...Just to tell him their views...
...So they can have, they should have, border police, maybe even light infantry, but they cannot have, in this new entity, any heavy armaments...
...I am just trying to explain that we are not far away from the issues of war and peace...
...I'm not talking about the existing settlements...
...That part of it is their business...
...I was fifteen when I joined the Haganah, back in 1937...
...People are not all for it...
...I had many babies...
...I only had a small sample this time...
...It is an issue where there are some crazy elements, and the American Jewish community is supposed to be, on the whole, liberal and open-minded and tolerant...
...And the minute we said "so do they," we became doves...
...Before that, he wouldn't even talk about it...
...on the issue of selling arms, we are with you...
...Begin now has to change more...
...And you can only stop it, to my mind, by telling Israel's leaders that we'll continue to support you...
...And I, and people like me—not too many—kept saying, "This is the central problem, and we cannot escape from it...
...And there are some pre-conditions...
...In fact, if anything, the doves want a stronger Israel...
...Let's keep all these territories as a surety for peace...
...That was my baby...
...And the other problem was that President Sadat became impatient...
...But they are not enough...
...We say that we have historical rights, and they say that they have historical rights...
...And if they said that to me, they should say it to the Prime Minister...
...I would have been the obvious pretender, since I came before Rabin and Peres in the Labor Party hierarchy...
...And I think this will make Begin more realistic...
...I've been doing it for ten years, and I long ago decided that what I'm doing is good for Israel, and good for Zionism, and good for the Jewish people...
...Support is being eroded anyway...
...It's a two-way process, of course...
...Somehow or other, they must be negotiated...
...All the people who head the list of doves in Israel have impeccable military careers, and none of us is ashamed of that...
...Sheli was constituted as a peace movement only two months before the elections...
...It was quite an assignment, and when I came back, I wrote a book about the Soviet Jews...
...They are intellectuals, the university professors, many of our young people...
...The same holds for the other places...
...But the ones who are opposing Begin now are the zealots who are doing the settlements, and Begin is a prisoner in his own house, to his own, old ideologies, and to extremists to his right...
...Land is not a baby...
...So people here should help him to unshackle himself...
...M: What do you think it will take for the leadership to speak out...
...Now you must understand that the Israeli peace movement and the dovish phenomenon there has nothing in common with the doves in America ten years ago...
...It takes time, and patience...
...E: He definitely was...
...There is not a single dove in Israel who does not believe that war is vital...
...Let's stay where we are...
...They have yet to recover from their defeat...
...E: I was born in Russia, and I came to Israel, which was then Palestine, at the age of two...
...And that's another reason we have to find a solution...
...Of course, there's a price to be paid...
...Whether he'll do it or not, I don't know...
...This whole thing is an anti-Zionist phenomenon, and eventually it will erode our very core...
...Because to my mind, they're doing harm to their own cause and to Israel if they don't say, "This cannot be done...
...What he did after Sadat gives me hope that if he is persuaded by the administration here, by legislators and by American Jews who should be more forthcoming and outspoken, he can be more flexible...
...And I saw a small number that showed me that the constituency is also confused...
...Sheli was a new phenomenon, and now, if we want to get more of the Arab vote, we'll have to work for it, to explain our position...
...I think he understands it...
...For the last three years, I've been in a kind of political wilderness...
...The fact is that I'd much rather have 300,000 not so elite...
...I was the captain of some of the vessels that brought survivors of the Holocaust to Palestine...
...But on the whole the constituents are as bewildered as the leaders...
...I don't say this by way of boasting...
...Is Israel getting meshugah...
...Yes, the majority of people are behind Begin...
...Do it...
...M: Who are the 30,000...
...And one of the reasons it got sour was over the settlements...
...But he's definitely made changes, and I think it's good, because it shows that the man is not all that rigid...
...And third, I think the main reason was that a group of right-wingers, from outside and inside the government, headed by Gush Emunim—Sharon being the spearhead inside the government—are doing these things which should not be done...
...M: What was the process that led you to break with the establishment...
...A synagogue here, a temple there...
...E: You know, in these things you have to have the first one or two or three courageous leaders who are willing to speak out, come what may...
...M: Do you see this kind of public stance coming from American Jewish leadership in the near future...
...Today, I don't think there's a person in his senses who says that the Palestinian problem does not exist...
...Thirty thousand people voted us in...
...E: Well, this, too, is a complicated issue...
...I think he has quite a lot of leeway within Israeli public opinion...
...And the recognition of its centrality was very late in coming...
...And I think that what they told me, they should tell Begin in so many words...
...Otherwise, they will not acquiesce...
...Seventeen...
...First, we need some moderate Palestinians with whom to negotiate...
...Before Sadat came, and the negotiations began, the argument was "We don't have anyone to talk to on the other side, so why play chess with ourselves...
...And the more so because the settlement issue, I am convinced, is a minor issue...
...To demilitarize, to hand it back to the Egyptians, just like that...
...We need that...
...This was during the '50's...
...Many of them said, "Are you meshugah...
...But to build new ones once the negotiations have started...
...Why should they stand to attention and defend the policies of some nit-wit generals...
...The Golan should be an open place so that the military can maneuver...
...After we started negotiations with Sadat, I think it was simply uncivilized and indecent to create more settlements...
...But land...
...The security value of the settlements is nil...
...Civilian settlements don't enhance security one iota...
...Let's not 'create new facts' in the meantime...
...But they are behind a Begin who will be flexible...
...We say that it is the land of our fathers, and they say that it is the land of their fathers...
...But in return, we require true peace...
...And I think the test of leadership will be if they are willing to tell their constituencies...
...And if you start from the position that we have rights and they have rights, then the solution comes by itself...
...So why did the Begin government do it...
...I believe in something...
...After Sadat's visit, he took two positions that could start the process...
...I wouldn't suggest they speak this way if I hadn't heard from so many of them that this is how they feel...
...They haven't yet taken on the proper role of the opposition...
...M: The basic fear, I think, is that any kind of public questioning will erode support for Israel...
...You can halve a tallit, a piece of cloth, you can go to a judge and he can tell you to halve a room or a house...
...Three million people ruling over another million...
...M: What's the core of the Sheli position...
...I said, in the Knesset, to Sharon— and he is the one in charge of them—that it is not only indecent, it's wrecking the whole peace process...
...Second, they must understand that their concern for sovereignty is matched by our concern for security...
...And these things they, too, should get...
...But from our standpoint, it is very dangerous...
...One is the Jewish, the Zionist movement, which claims the whole of Eretz Yisrael...
...But there is another national movement, the movement of the Palestinian Arabs, and they claim the same land...
...But the doves also want to find a compromise...
...Non-Jewish legislators understand the policies even less than Jews...
...But power is not the most important thing in a man's life...
...E: Labor is simply not playing a big role now...
...M: What about Begin himself...
...His positions before Sadat were non-starters...
...It's also a social and moral problem, because if we don't solve it, our whole society will change...
...Eliav: I'm used to it...
...M: What about the settlements issue...
...M: But American Jews continue to go to Israel to visit, and they talk to people, and they come back and say, "The people of Israel are behind Begin 100 percent...
...He has a clear majority to pursue the road to peace...
...Some could be dismantled...
...But we have a situation where the Prime Minister cannot put his foot down...
...I applauded Begin when I thought he was going in the right direction...
...She and the others kept insisting that the problem simply did not exist...
...It is really a minor thing, in itself, but it is a great irritant...
...Not about all the issues in Israel, but about certain issues...
...My generation was involved in a number of bloody skirmishes at an early age...
...Yet that only lasted for a very short period...
...We must keep the Golan until there is a true peace...
...After a while, the whole thing got sour...
...Even with Sinai, which is a very large peninsula and the largest military base in the Middle East, there has to be a process of negotiation...
...E: First of all, it's not 100 percent...
...General has to sit with general...
...So our theoretical solution is that Israel should have made a declaration of principle ten years ago, after 1967, saying we know that this is a major problem, and the way to solve it is to halve the loaf, meaning that we are prepared to recognize the Palestinian right to self-determination in the West Bank and Gaza, and to permit the Palestinians to determine for themselves whether they are going to link up with Jordan, and what the nature of the link will be...
...When they led the government, the common denominator was power, but there is no longer a common ideology, and they don't have recognized leadership...
...M: But that's where the argument starts, isn't it...
...Take the Golan, for example...
...A national movement, and the Palestinians are a national movement, as we are, has as its goal a nation, a state...
...Now, to my mind, and for others who believe as I do, the security value of these settlements is zero, and sometimes subzero...
...They don't swallow the settlement position at all...
...Not a drop...
...And when people ask me what's so important about a flag and a passport, I tell them this is why my parents brought me here, to have a flag and a passport...
...But peace is even more sacred, and we shouldn't be making a mishmash there which will be impossible to untangle when we come to negotiate...
...The fourth time I ran, I headed the ticket of the Israeli peace movement, Sheli, and we got two seats...
...People should be behind a Begin who will bring Israel to peace, not behind a Begin who will bring a collapse of the talks...
...Security will come about as a result of demilitarization, with inspection, and with international guarantees, and with American guarantees, and with a very strong Israeli army...
...E: It's the other way around, to my mind...
...Maybe there are some die-hards among the right-wing here, or in some very Orthodox groups, or other very conservative ones...
...It's not only a political problem, an international problem, a military problem...
...They don't understand it, they cannot justify it, and they cannot defend it...
...It's not sensible...
...Some courage...
...M: What is it that you're hearing from the leadership of the Jewish community here...
...I grew up in Tel Aviv, and I joined the Haganah when I was very young...
...Until Sadat, the doves in Israel were very much in the closet...
...Sinai should be secured with tanks...
...I supported Begin in the Knesset as a dove...
...We had our share in it, and they had their share...
...And I'm afraid that's what's happening now...
...Then came the War of Independence, and I served in the Israeli army, and after the war I went into resettlement, into the planning and building of development towns and villages for Jewish immigrants from wherever they came...
...These are relatively minor issues...
...I was one of the original planners of the Lachish area, I was in charge of building Kiryat Gat, and then a very beautiful desert town called Arad...
...I'm not telling them to dictate to him— God forbid...
...Many people acknowledge the social issue, the moral issue—but on security grounds, refuse to accept the prospect of Palestinian self-determination...
...Especially at the time of the Sadat visit, and then for a short while afterward, he surprised even people like me with his flexibility, and we gave him credit...
...Later, in 1958,1 was sent to Moscow, where I served for three years as First Secretary of the Israeli Embassy, and my mission then was to meet the Jews of the Soviet Union and to spread the word...
...This is what they told me, one after another, in camera...
...And over the last ten years, the things I believe in have become increasingly important to us, and I am worried that more people didn't listen when I and others started saying them...
...They are a liability rather than an asset...
...They want a government, they want a parliament, they want freedom of assembly, they want flags and coins and medals, they want everything the Zionists want...
...MOMENT INTERVIEW WITH ARIE BIAV REFLECTIONS OF ISRAEL'S LEADING DOVE ON THE BEGIN GOVERNMENT AND THE AMERICAN JEWISH COMMUNITY Moment: You are widely regarded as Israel's number one dove these days...
...But, as in so many other things, the majority wouldn't listen, and Golda Meir's government began to create a whole new set of facts, with settlements on the Golan and on the West Bank...
...I didn't come here to convince people...
...It was simply a question of different ideologies...
...With all of these in place, I'm ready to take the chance...
...I think they should stop—immediately—the creation of any new settlements while the negotiations are taking place...
...Maybe because of the great thing he did, he wanted quick results...
...All this we know, and it's good...
...It should be demilitarized...
...The Palestinian problem is the central problem of the entire conflict between us and the Arabs...
...I was imprisoned on Cyprus a number of times, and on one of the boats I met my wife, who was a survivor of the Holocaust...
...One day, if we have others to talk to, the settlements that exist in Sinai could be negotiated...
...a baby you cannot cut in half...
...In short, I really was a part of what you call "the establishment...
...Let's talk first about the general problem of the settlements in the occupied territories...
...They are bad losers...
...Then I joined the British army, where I served from 1940 to 1945, fighting with the Jewish Brigade in Montgomery's army and ending up in Germany...
...We won't get it all, neither will they...
...on the issue of maintaining the balance of power, we are with you...
...I and my friends said, after the Six Day War, "Okay, now we have acquired these territories, on all fronts, after a great victory...
...After the Six Day War, it was fashionable to say, "Let's not talk about it," as if by not talking about it the problem would go away...
...Why do you think the Begin government has taken the position it has...
...Some could be incorporated into Israel under the heading of minor mutual adjustments, and some might stay on under Egyptian sovereignty...
...Why not...
...And I started a debate within the Labor Party, which became a struggle, until I couldn't stand it anymore, and finally broke from the party, after the Yom Kippur War...
...Most Israeli Arabs voted either Communist— not because they are Communists but because they are nationalists, and that was the outlet for them— or according to their older patterns, for one of the traditional parties...
...We shouldn't have done it...
...And then, in 1956, there was another war, and I volunteered to head a rescue mission to save the Jews in Port Said, behind enemy lines...
...It's only now, after Sadat, that he has some new concepts...
...So where my colleagues and I stand is that we say, "Yes, we have a right to it, but so do they...
...First of all, I think that Begin was not the master of his own house...
...And our only pre-condition should be our own security...
...Who are they talking to...
...A while later, I went into politics, and became the Secretary General of Mapai, which was, of course, the party in power...
...It's not defensible to the general public in America or in Congress or anywhere...
...It deforms our whole body politic...
...there's no need to exaggerate the matter...
...they begrudge...
...This is not what Zionism is about...
...The Palestinians are like our shadow, like our Siamese twin...
...Second, there is the Begin of 40 years of an ideology which says that we have to annex everything...
...From their economic standpoint, the situation is not bad...
...You have to know the facts of life...
...He said we would give back Sinai, for true peace, and that on the self-rule issue, we would be more forthcoming...
...But he shouldn't have expected quick results, either from Begin or from me...
...M: What about the Begin self-rule proposal...
...I'm not sure that he agreed to all the settlements— which still doesn't justify them...
...But we have to keep it militarily, with guns and with tanks...
...I was never in the closet...
...E: Yes, there are some, but we really got started too late to have a real movement among Israeli Arabs...
...You must halve the loaf...
...Maybe too much so...
...Not too many settlements...
...And, in a round-about way, we did help him...
...My colleagues and I, on the other hand, set about to diagnose the malaise which is the source of the Middle East problem in terms of two national liberation movements...
...But most of the leaders I've spoken with in the American Jewish community cannot understand the current Israel policy in general, do not know where Israel is headed, and in particular, they cannot understand the position on the whole settlement issue...
...There is no longer a common denominator...
...American Jews want the community of Israel to flourish, to be strong socially and economically and militarily...
...And a dovish Prime Minister would do the same thing...
...I was a very ardent Zionist, and so I convinced my parents to come with me...
...E: Unfortunately, they are Israel's elite...
...But what about their constituencies...
...But not me...
...Only a few voted for Sheli...
...I could have sat back and said nothing, and stayed in a position of power under Golda Meir...
...So the erosion is there...
...Maybe our whole situation would be different today...
...So, Sadat became impatient, and the whole thing began to go sour...
...And this was the first issue where I had great differences with Golda...
...People whose records are impeccable must stand up and say, "This is what I have to say about this issue...
...These are bright people, who visit often, well-connected in the Jewish community here...
...I was Golda's right-hand man when she was Prime Minister, and I served twice as a Deputy Minister in her government...
...So we have to declare, loud and clear, that while negotiations are taking place, no more settlements...
...It's time for them to come out, and speak up...
...Let's sit there, with the army, with tanks, with guns, and wait for moderate Arabs with whom we can talk about how to return them, eventually, for a full-fledged peace—and not for anything less...

Vol. 3 • April 1978 • No. 5


 
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