PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST?
Oz, Amos & Howe, Irving
The following discussion between Amos Oz, the gifted Israeli novelist, and Irving Howe, an editor of DISSENT, took place toward the end of 1974. Some details of the Middle East situation may...
...It is one of the most unlikely coalitions in history— Communist countries, oil sheiks, and the poorest countries in Asia and Africa who are more victimized by Arab oil policy than anyone else...
...I regard it as essential that the Palestinians will have something rather dramatic to lose if they break the settlement...
...Recently, there appeared the work of the young Egyptian writer Sana Hassan, obviously a well-intentioned young woman, and one feels if only she had power there would be no trouble, because she is talking in rational terms, just as you are talking in rational terms and just as most Israelis with whom you disagree also are talking in rational terms...
...At the same time, I think the government should never recognize unilaterally the PLO as long as the PLO refuses to recognize Israel...
...IH: Is there anything that the Israeli government could do at the present time to encourage, let us say, the more constructive trends among the Arabs...
...This would not, of course, be the end of the drama...
...So there is created an irredentist government on the West Bank which is—and you know one has to go there to see it—literally across the street...
...That is about as far as I would like the present Israeli government to go...
...I am not sure that Menachem Begin is talking in rational terms, but I'll leave him aside...
...Mind you, he did not exclude Palestinians, he did not even automatically exclude the PLO if the PLO were to change its policies...
...IH: When I was in Israel last winter, all of these questions were being debated, and one of the most remarkable things about Israeli life was the intensity and passion of its political life...
...I would also try to deescalate the verbal exchange for technical reasons...
...But if the Palestinians were willing to live shoulder to shoulder with Israel, the risk of making an arrangement would still be considerable...
...they give the Israelis some kind of vague assurances—it is not likely that they would formally recognize Israel—and promise not to try to dismember Israel, at least not right away...
...we can't afford to lose...
...On the West Bank it would hold a gun literally to our hearts...
...I don't really think that whatever he said in the UN is going to be decisive to our future...
...Personally, I wish Rabin would have been in a position to say more explicitly that we can offer recognition for recognition, legitimacy for legitimacy...
...Rabin said in the Knesset that Israel will never negotiate with anyone who is not willing to recognize its very right of existence—which is a clear hint of with whom Israel may negotiate...
...We fear that we are headed toward war in the Middle East during the next year...
...Prime Minister Rabin is a cautious and understating politician, but he did express an idea that would have been unthinkable in the days of Dayan and Golda Meir...
...The doves, since the Yom Kippur War, are fully aware of the Arabs' intentions— whereas the hawks are perhaps becoming more aware of the depth of the Palestinian problem as the crux of the matter...
...When I think of Israel's policy between the 1967 war and the 1973 war—and I have been in bitter opposition to the Meir-Dayan policies— I do not accuse the former Israeli government of not wanting peace...
...There is no halfexistence...
...No Israeli, hawk or dove, would negotiate about the terms of a Jewish community living under Arab rule—this is out of the question...
...I have noticed that the Rabin government has been very cautious in the handling of recent developments...
...Right now they feel that everything is going in their direction—Soviet help, Arab oil money, UN endorsement, tacit support in Western Europe...
...PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST...
...But when this view was 122 AMOS OZ AND IRVING HOWE expressed, a number of the Israelis with whom I spoke, more or less connected with the Meir government, offered the following objection, which, I think, has a certain strength: all right, let's say we negotiate with some Palestinians, let's say we negotiate even with the PLO or the PLO in some disguise...
...I blame them for being unimaginative...
...The problem seems to me that there are people on the other side who are not talking in rational terms, who are inflamed with their messianic expectations...
...We take calculated risks...
...But I think that in a sense that is what Zionism is all about...
...We have seen this process working in several countries, Israel itself not excluded...
...but I believe it could be satisfied essentially or at least up to a point without threatening Israel's existence...
...It's not that I object on principle to the idea of calling Arafat and his gang murderers—they are murderers...
...But let me offer for the sake of argument what I think might be the reply to what you have said...
...But if there is no possibility of such a scheme being accepted by the Palestinians, what then is the force of the dove position in Israel...
...The mood is sober because very few illusions are left among Israelis, and I would say that in a strange sort of way there is more concensus nowadays between hawks and doves in Israel than ever before...
...But it seems to me essential...
...AO: First of all, let me say that I respect the arguments of my political opponents in Israel...
...The question that has to be asked is, what is the realistic plausibility of the acceptance of the kind of proposal that you make...
...Whether the PLO leadership will adjust to this possibility, I don't know...
...Things could be done during those years, such as, for example— and I am just speculating—enabling the Arab inhabitants of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to express their views through a referendum or even to elect under international inspection some kind of national representation, an Arab agency, like the Jewish Agency under the British administration...
...How do we know," these Israelis said to me, "that tomorrow Arafat isn't removed and George Habash takes over, heading a regime that is weak economically and socially but strong militarily...
...ED...
...AO: As you say, the Rabin government is a very cautious team...
...A Palestinian national identity certainly had not been there in the days of early Zionism, when the entire Arab population of Palestine hardly numbered half a million people with no sense of national identity whatsoever...
...And in this respect it is precisely the fact that the country is so small and the geography so dramatic, which may create the grounds for something more reliable than vague verbal assurances...
...No, I would go for a partial, interim, and unsatisfactory arrangement with the Palestinians...
...The alternative scenario is simply messianic and unreal—very "Jewish" in a sense: either a full-scale eternal peace or no settlement at all...
...This seems to us too great a risk...
...Nevertheless, this story is over, as well as the disappointing love affair with King Hussein and his irrelevant Hashemite kingdom...
...It is a matter of life and death for all of us...
...IH: I am certainly sympathetic to your view that we should not have messianic expectations...
...If they don't, if they still keep aiming at the disintegration of Israel or what they call a "democratic secular state," there is no escape from another war, and then another one, and still another one...
...Now, if President Sadat is sincere in saying that he is ready to accept, even if under unlikely terms, Israel's existence, the real test will be, is he capable of bringing to the conference hall in Geneva or elsewhere a Palestinian delegation prepared to seriously negotiate...
...On the other hand, I have my doubts about the stability of the pro-Arab coalition...
...I would not recommend any further unilateral concessions...
...Meanwhile they have gained the West Bank, and with that vast sums of money pouring in from the Arab powers, together with arms from the Soviet Union...
...Back in 1943, hypothetically, if Hitler would have suddenly decided that he was willing to let some Jews out, Weitzmann would have gone all the way to Berlin and even shaken hands with the monster in order to save human lives...
...The best we can hope for is not a melodramatic reconciliation through a magical formula...
...Sad, because we might well be heading toward another war—which I believe, we shall win—and which still would be as pointless as any war could be...
...Far from it...
...And do you think that the Israeli governments have been mistaken or perhaps too stubborn in their 121 earlier refusal to recognize this national sentiment...
...If, God forbid, an Arab coalition ever were stronger than Israel, then God help us all...
...Sooner or later—and I don't know how long it will take—there should come about a mutual recognition of the PLO by Israel and of Israel by the PLO...
...You can't negotiate a compromise between existence and nonexistence...
...Oz, as a leading Israeli figure and a supporter of the "dove" position in Israel, remain of immediate interest...
...But is there, in your judgment, any political gesture or statement that would help things...
...We step into history, we step into politics, we don't live with messianic expectations for a golden era to come...
...they have a very narrow majority, and within the coalition government there are some opponents to any comprQmise with the Palestinians...
...I am not going to forecast or prophesize, but I have the feeling that if anyone in or outside Israel ever believed in a quick reconciliation, he must be disillusioned by now...
...In your judgment, is there an authentic Palestinian national sentiment that requires consideration and respect even from its opponents...
...My impression is that the Israelis are waiting to see what will happen once the rhetoric dies down...
...Not at the expense of Israel's existence and security...
...Once there is something to negotiate about—mutual recognition—then there will be negotiations...
...IH: There is obviously a great deal of anxiety in America today concerning the situation in the Middle East...
...The results of such elections might have led to a Palestinian leadership that may still have been much too extremist for my liking, but also still less fanatic and extremist than the PLO...
...Personally I am in an awkward position in Israel because I reach dovish conclusions, although I have hawkish assumptions about Arab intentions...
...They see the possibility of grabbing everything—which means the destruction of Israel...
...To put it in a very straight-forward way, so that every Palestinian Arab in Nablus, in Hebron, in the old City of Jerusalem, or in the refugee camps in Lebanon will know that he has something to gain if he comes to terms with Israel...
...No matter how reinforced by other Arab countries, it could not by itself endanger the existence of Israel...
...It is not that the hawks have become less "hawky" or the doves less "dovish"—it is perhaps that the light, sometimes irresponsible optimism of the doves is gone...
...The best scenario I can see is an interim, partial, unsatisfactory settlement between Israelis and Palestinians...
...Still, you sometimes have to deal with murderers in order to save human lives...
...They did want peace...
...As a consequence they set up a government of their own on the West Bank...
...Still, there is a risk, even if we have such guarantees and even if we get an effective demilitarization of the Palestinian state...
...What we need is practical, down-to-earth guarantees...
...I have fought in two wars and I have children in the country...
...Let's bear in mind that whatever this Palestine is going to be, it will be half a Lebanon in size and population...
...How would you answer this argument of who were then the "establishment" people...
...So I would prefer the Israeli government to say that we can't negotiate with the PLO, not because they are savage murderers, but precisely because there is nothing yet to negotiate about...
...Whatever will happen to us will be decided in the Middle East...
...IH: That leads to the crucial question...
...but the essential points made by Mr...
...The atmosphere in Israel right now is one of sad and sober determination, not anxiety or depression...
...it might well be the beginning of harsh, painful bargaining about territories, frontiers, guarantees, etc...
...AO: Well, I think one can be a good Zionist and a good Israeli and yet admit that the Palestinian Arabs have a certain case, without identifying with the ruthless and fanatic way in which they struggle for their case, especially the PLO...
...Whoever is going to take over in this Palestinian state to be created alongside Israel will have something to lose and therefore will have to subdue his own extremists...
...I do not even accuse them of arrogance, although a certain amount of arrogance was in the air in Israel...
...Anyway, it is there, and it should be satisfied in some way...
...Therefore I may be held in suspicion both by doves and hawks alike...
...We have nothing to gain...
...Many people feel that there was ground for modest hopefulness concerning negotiations before the Rabat Conference, but that it has seriously undermined this possibility...
...If all he has to offer is, first you withdraw from all territories and then you have to come to terms with the Palestinians, that means he wants to leave the mid-East bomb alive rather than dismantle it...
...And this must never occur, even if we have an "everlasting" peace and Sadat joins the Zionist movement...
...Ironically enough, the Palestinian national identity may well be a by-product of Zionism, the result of a love-hate relation between enemies...
...The basis must be a mutual, perhaps simultaneous recognition...
...I think that the policies of Israel have changed considerably...
...Although I am an Israeli dove, I still would not give territories in exchange for vague verbal assurances...
...124 AMOS OZ AND IRVING HOWE...
...Some of the people with whom I visited expressed the view that Israel had been unimaginative in relation to the Palestinians and should have allowed political life on the West Bank, so that a more rational and reasonable Palestinian movement would have arisen in place of the PLO...
...AO: By a strange coincidence I happened to arrive in America on the day of Arafat's speech at the UN...
...So I do believe that the Arabs will realize very soon that this coalition cannot last very long...
...I was very worried, not so much by what he said—which was no news to me—but by the extreme anxiety, sometimes verging on panic among Americans, especially American Jews...
...Some details of the Middle East situation may change by the time the following transcript appears in print...
...But fundamentally I think that we have to bear in mind That if the renewed Arab extremism is going to last, we are certainly heading toward another war...
...Both parties might leave the conference hall with a secret determination to teach the other party a lesson one day, yet such negotiations may eventually create the climate for a gradual deescalation of emotions, and this is essential before a peace can be achieved...
...Coming from the Middle East into New York on the day of Arafat's speech felt almost like coming from the midst of a drama to the verge of a comedy...
...Even then I would still believe that Israel has to be stronger than any Arab coalition...
...Any Palestinian government on the West Bank and in Gaza should be interrelated right from the start to Israel in such things as the electricity system, the irrigation system, and other things that will create the grounds for a different Palestinian perspective...
...yet, it might be worth taking...
...Now, in the last election campaign, you supported the Moked, a dovish left-wing party with another point of view...
...After all, we are not playing chess...
...It is a scary thought, but I think that a nation that tries to prevent war at any price is almost sure to get it...
...I have never been anywhere where there was so much discussion and such freedom in the expression of every conceivable opinion...
...I blame them for not seeing that the Palestinian problem is the crux of the matter, and Palestinian identity is building up very quickly...
...123 AO: Precisely those arguments make me rather skeptical about what I just described as the best possible scenario—best possible does not necessarily mean likely...
Vol. 22 • April 1975 • No. 2
