Correspondence
I I Correspondence I I I GAY RIGHTS: LAW & MORALITY AN EXCHANGE OF VIEWS Portland, Oreg. To the Editors: David Carlin's commentary on "gay rights" ["Stamp of Approval," November 29] is...
...When given civilizations recognized the true essence of homosexuality, they did not condemn it...
...REV...
...I should add, however, that in making a prima facie case that discrimination exists it is not enough to narrate a series of sad anecdotes...
...l 31 January 1986:59MARYKNOLL SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY i INSTITUTE FOR JUSTICE AND PEACE J Summer Session 9 July 7. August 6 COURSES: Theology of Liberation Feminism and Christian Thought Christian Theology of Peace Internship in Latin America Muhammed Hallaj Mary Hunt Marc Ellis Patricla Steffes WORKSHOPS: Palestinian Pcrspec on the Middle Waging Peace: Practical Nonviolence Women in the Third World Nuclearism and Christian Response Militarism and the African Famine PARTICIPANTS: Richard Taylor Daniel Berrigan Otto Maduro Gabrielle Dietrich Richard Albertlne Phyllis Taylor Philip Berrigan Nicholas Mottern FOR FURTHER INFORMATION WRITE TO: Director of Enrollment Maryknoll School of Theology Maryknoll, New York 10545 A Sonm r Trod'dion, Offering quali~ theological and ministerial education since 1857, Saint John's Univermty continues this tradition in its 1986 summer graduate program, June 23 - August 1. Courses and workshops include: Carl Peter: Christian Anthropology Margaret O'Gara: Ecumenism: Christian Theologies in Dialog Godfrey Diekmann, OSB: Patristic Theology Emmanuel Cutrone: Rites of Reconciliation Rites of Christian Marriage Thomas J. TaZtey: The Liturgical Year Gall Ramshaw-Schmidt: The Language of the Liturgy Shaura Madigan, CSJ: American Spiritualities Michael O'ConneU and Michael Cowan: Introduction to Pastoral Hermaneutics (July 7-18) Alvin Rueter: Making Good Preaching Better (June 23-June 27) Evelyn Woodwam~ RSJ: Theology of Pastoral Ministry Doris Murphy: Models for Parish Catechesis: Adults and Families (July 7-18) Christiane Brusselmans and Staff...
...Civilization from time out of mind, has not, as Carlin asserts, condemned homosexuality...
...68r throe times...
...To the Editors: Even if it is true, as Mr...
...the legacy of the New Left...
...COMMONWEAL, 232 Madison Ave., NYC 10016...
...If I have read them correctly, only two of the ten letter writers (Higgin,~ and Stifflear) express disagreement with, my ii | Wood statue of C~therme of S,ena, counesy of Grass1 Stud,o of S,ena HOLY ANOREXIA Rudolph M. Bell Is there a parallel between the contemporary young woman bent on self.starvation to attain physical perfection and the medieval saint fasting for spiritual perfection...
...To date I am not aware that such inferiority has been demonstrated, but I remain open to correction...
...To the Editors: Regarding David R. Carlin's opposition to the protection of the civil rights of gay persons: How does the legal protection of equal employment opportunity -- or access to public accommodation or to rental property, or equal treatment 'by credit agencies -imply moral endorsement of the conduct of those who are protected...
...I no longer have such feelings...
...3) when I confessed to being an "intolerant homophobe," Fr...
...In Mr...
...By any measure, they are grossly underrepresented in the halls of power in this country...
...Carlin appears to be as unenlightened about the writings of St...
...Then he protests that those who disagree with his objection to legislating these civil liberties, i.e., providing a "moral endorsement" for lesbians and gays, are intolerant/immoral...
...The practical issues such Catholics must therefore address are two: how to detect the guilty and how to protect the innocent...
...There is, Bell contends, and he presents startling evidence, spanning 500 years, from the lives of more than 250 Italian women, including such famous mystics as Catherine of Siena, Veronica Giuliani, and Margaret of Cortona...
...Carlin asserts, that gay fights proponents are promoting gay fights legislation on the basis that the undedying conduct inflicts no direct and tangible harm on anyone -- a flawed moral argument, says Mr...
...If he wasn't joking, he would do well to learn from them...
...I just find it sad that a supposedly progressive and Christian journal like Commonweal is still open to publishing a piece of gay-baiting this blatant...
...Church/world watch I (Continued from page 40) eral major positions in the U.S...
...ALLAN J. STIFFLEAR To chuck or not Toledo, Ohio To the Editors: Your November 29 issue carried a column by David Carlin, Jr., a self- identified" intolerant homophobe...
...Thomas's real views on that subject may be found in S.T., II-II, Q. 154, arts...
...It lacked both logic and compassion...
...What about those over thirty-five trying to live in ~vhat, following Carlin's admired St...
...Inaugral artist...
...I've never been activein his comer of the world (Rhode Island), but experience in Massachusetts and New York politics convinces me that (Continued on page 58) Commonweal: 34dent law and policy -- just as they expect public leaders to respect the right and competence of churchmen to define church teaching: this is one meaning of religious freedom and church-state separation in American politics...
...Michael Harrington has brought together twenty-five of the many essays he has written over the last three decades...
...No one believes that morality has been undermined there...
...Calvert, suggests, by writing an explicit disclaimer into the law), I would have no objection to such a law...
...To the Editors: David Carlin insists on a link between "morality" and "rights" (how about the term "liberties" instead...
...It was a gift and sign from God on how he wanted them to function as human beings...
...All sizes...
...To oppose legislation protecting civil liberties, which have been denied for various reasons, because such legislation implies moral endorsement is a specious argument...
...The Sadat visit to Jerusalem made the Camp David negotiations possible...
...Our lifestyle is far more than just "sex" for us...
...LOUIS, MISSOURI 63108-3395 The Other Walls: The Politics of the Arab-Israeli Peace Process [American Enterprise Institute, $17.95, $9.95 paper, 177 pp...
...To the Editors: Several thoughts on David Carlin's November 29 column "Stamp of Approval": Charges of homophobia can and often are a form of intolerance...
...he should request transfer to Columbus...
...he uses the term against ~ himself to prove that it is a buzz word leveled unthinkingly at any opponent of gay rights legislation...
...But homophobes apparently are still welcome to use your space...
...In this context, the Democratic party's nomination of Ferraro as the first female vicepresidential candidate represented a significant advance in the struggle for political equality...
...IJlus...
...paid, is a new companion to Raissa's Journal, 400 pages, also $13.89...
...The viability of democratic socialism, both here and overseas...
...Deciding what is moral can and should be left to a broader culture, including bishops and generally eloquent columnist-legislators...
...I refer these gentlemen to the Summa where Thomas opines on the morality of homosexual conduct: "Because of the diverse conditions of humans, it happens that some acts are virtuous to some people, as appropriate to them, while the same acts are immoral for others, as inappropriate to them...
...o4 Theological Studies (M.T.S...
...THOMAS H/GGINS Episcopal comparison Boston, Mass...
...While women are a majority (53 percent) of the population, they hold only 14 percent of state legislative seats, 4 percent of gubernatorial posts, and only 5 percent of congressional seats...
...If discrimination exists and if it could be made plain that the aim of the law is to deal with discrimination and not to confer moral legitimacy upon homosexual conduct (perhaps, as one of the writers, Fr...
...JACK CLARK Commonweal: 58Right to immorality Piedmont, Calif...
...Carlin's view, gay rights is really a matter of trendy liberal pieties...
...GEORGE R. KISH i i f"A brilliant, disturbing study . . . . an original, controversial, superbly executed shocker in academic garb...
...poverty in America...
...They have a right to respect, friendship, and j u s t i c e . . . " (Pastoral Letter on Moral Values, "To Live in Christ Jesus...
...Faculty: Donald Senior, Carolyn Osiek, 1" Roland Murphy, Bruce Metzger, Reginald Fuller, Joseph Cunneen...
...Maritain Notebooks, Jacques Maritain, 312 pages, $13.89 post...
...33 Buckingham Dr...
...For us to function in any other way would be unnatural for us and therefore contrary to his plan for us...
...Carlin is homophobic...
...It was the first manifestation of their personhood as a heterosexual...
...Ill Commonweal: 60order] to act in ways unnatural for them, clearly indicating that erring heterosexuals are his target...
...This gives him room to speak against gay rights legislation while asserting that some of his best friends are homosexuals...
...BOX B ST...
...is now expending on the Middle East...
...It will take more attention and activism than the U.S...
...His Aquinas quote is from Summa Theologica, I-1I, Q. 94, art...
...Prohibition...
...He states that the Apostle, "got positively rabid on the subject (i.e., homosexuality) in the first chapter of Romans...
...Gay rights activism insists that sexual morality per se cannot be the determinant for civil rights...
...the opposition to the war in Vietnam...
...Gabrlel Fackre interprets these basic beliefs as "chapters Inthe biography of God...
...A few comments on some misinterpretations that surfaced in the letters: (1) I didn't say and I don't believe that homosexual conduct between consenting adults should be a criminal offense...
...Carlin and his bishop fear that the enactment of gay rights legislation would constitute moral approbation for homosexual conduct...
...Second, the passage is not an exhortation about sexual morality...
...Most heterosexuals can remember back far enough to that instant in time (usually at age 9-11), when a person of the opposite sex was not just a person dressed differently, but a person who suddenly caused a physical and psychological response in them...
...History of Spirituality and [!l~i~ve Courses in spirituality and spiritual direction...
...64r six times...
...In a pluralistic society such as ours, the guarantee of the individual's basic right to practice consensual "immorality" must prevail over any attempt to deny liberties and enforce standards of conduct by those who have failed to convince/convert by the force of their arguments...
...Kirkus Reviews The author replies: I used to feel neglected when my columns evoked few or no letters to the editor...
...Should their parish priests issue cards they can present to bosses or landlords who couldn't care less about the state of their soul...
...I've been hit with the charge myself, and it irritates...
...Not the specifics of treaties or the size of the delegations, but the political conditions which allow leaders to negotiate is something he believes the U.S...
...Paul as he is about the germane issues of gay rights...
...For more information: Anthony Ciccariello 520 W. Gray St...
...Of course, Mr...
...Both modern and "holy" anorexics, he holds, seek control of their physical or spiritual selves as part of liberation from the demands of culturally defined ideals dictated by a patriarchal family or society...
...The patronizing tone of his column speaks for itself: he is simply insensitive and unthinking on the topic of gay rights . . . . DAVID BARBOUR Laws of perfection Dorchester, Mass...
...So has Commonweal...
...Rites of Christian Initiation of Children (June 15-20) Scripture and History Study in Jerusalem Financial Aid Available For complete summer catalog contact: Assistant Dean for Students School of Theology Room 103 Saint John's University CoUegeville, MN 56321 (612) 363-2102 then what about straights who don't look just right to Carlin's buddies at some "townie" bar -- like the husband and wife beat up in Brooklyn by teenagers who excused themselves to the cops by saying they thought both were male...
...Yet there is as much a Christian obligation to support the gays to the point of full civil rights as there is some good, specifically Catholic reason to go no further...
...Seven of the ten, in other words, express no disagreement at all...
...Limited edition...
...Those of us who support legislated civil liberties for gays and lesbians do so, not primarily on moral grounds (although most of us believe strongly that it is indeed moral to do so), but on the basis of a regrettably needed action to redress and prevent well-documented, widely experienced denial of basic needs . . . . This country has always gotten itself into trouble when it tries to legally deny private, consensual activities among adults, the results of which do not inflict direct and tangible harm...
...2) that it also has the aim and effect of labeling as bigots those persons who continue to hold that homosexual conduct is not morally legitimate...
...Many of us out here are convinced that the conduct of Roman Catholic bishops in refusing to ordain women is immoral...
...Paper, $4.95 r~aa ~RDMANS m I~JBU~-t~G CO...
...Carlin doesn't really believe that he is homophobic...
...If we situate the Ferraro candidacy within the context of women's continued exclusion from American politics, we may appreciate the seriousness of the bishops' error during the 1984 campaign...
...That is the tree "social context" of the legislation . . . . Gay rights legislation has been the law in Wisconsin for over a year...
...But this is the sort of thing that happens when you remain too long in Toledo...
...They should be able to wear the clothes they want (even in public) and sleep at the hotels of their choice (providing they can afford the rates and do not create a nuisance to other patrons...
...Two of the essays originally appeared in Commonweal...
...he believes stalemate in the region is not benign...
...They might give him a valuable perspective on justice and love in the face of officially sanctioned discrimination...
...Paul, was once defended by the church as "the single state of blessedness...
...Thomas are utterly bizarre...
...The subject is used analogically to condemn idolatry...
...Third, Paul is not considering homosexuals at all...
...I believe Saunders should be read and heeded...
...11 and 12...
...There is, apparently, no moral problem with promoting a system of gay apartheid, where those children of God, ipso facto morally inferior and worthless, can suffer, without recourse of law, discrimination, oppression, and humiliation...
...B i b l i c a l I n s t i t u t e 21 st Biblical Institute, Trinity College, Burlington, VT 05401, June 15-20, 1986...
...4, reply 3 - but it has nothing whatever to do with homosexuality...
...J. Frank Oevlne, S.J...
...Carlin and his bishop insist upon the disenfranchisement of adulterous and incontinent heterosexuals...
...And A Narrative Interpretation of Basic Chdstlan Doctrlne THE CHRISTIAN STORY Revised Edition Gabriel Fackre Originally publlshed in 1978, The Christian Story examines In an introductory manner the basic Christian doctrines of God, the Fall, Covenant, Christ, the Church, Salvation, and Consummation...
...Possibly so...
...If Carlin identified himself as an "intolerant anti-Semite" or "intolerant black hater," you would have chucked the column...
...he 3pifituality Concentration ~,ar~ be done within the ~a~e...
...I realize of course that a lack of expressed disagreement does not necessarily indicate agreement, but it does indicate that we were largely talking past one another...
...DAVID R. CARLIN, JR...
...For them to function in any other way would be unnatural for them and therefore contrary to his plan for them...
...Magi Books, Inc...
...His thesis is absurd: "gay rights legisl a t i o n . . , constitute[s] an official stamp of moral approval for homosexual conduct...
...Elmira, NY 14905 Commonweal: 62...
...I don't dispute Carlin's right to espouse his intolerance...
...I did not deny this in the offending column, and I don't deny it now...
...Unfortunately for him, you also can't separate the social context from what legislation actually says . . . . Carlin has argued forcefully in the past on the abortion issue...
...apartheid...
...12208...
...Part of the argument has been that a stand against permissive abortion laws is based on genuinely pro-life suppositions and does not imply a punitive sexual morality...
...Weston School of Theology 3 Phillips Place Cambrldoe, MA 02138 (617) 492-1960 Contact Father Devine for information about any of our other degrees and programs first proposition, no one with my second, and only one (Kish) with my third...
...the depoliticization of the novel and the hidden utopianism of Disneyland -- the topics illustrate both stages in Harrington's political engagement and recurring objects of his concern...
...Instead, it forbids certain discrimination against people who do not choose their sexual orientation...
...government...
...Sorry, David, but the straw man you have created misstates the issues...
...15 plus 4% VA tax...
...To the Editors: David R. Carlin, Jr., may not care if he is honestly "tolerant," but his shabby article against gay rights legislation, genuine at least in its panicky befuddlement, can only serve the cause of hate . . . . By categorically opposing any basic gay rights legislation, Carlin and some bishops are thereby prepared to condone discrimination against gays i n employment, housing, health insurance, etc...
...Contrary to Carlin, it often does take courage to be publicly supportive of gay rights . . . . Carlin is absolutely right that you can't separate legislation from its social context...
...J. BRYAN HEHIR Correspondence (Continued from page 34) gay-baiting remains alive and well...
...22.50 ~,., The University of Chicago Press i |J J 31 January 1986:61WESTON SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY Cambridge, Massachusetts ,.c, oOL 1922-1986 A National Jesuit Theological Center Announces a New Prooram In Spirituality There will be 3 Core Courses in Biblical Spirituality: Theology of the Spiritual life...
...Write: Sister Miriam Ward...
...ROLAND CALVERT, O,S.F.S...
...But for all the cleverness of Carlin's turning the issue back to that of liberal intolerance, is he really saying that anti-homosexual prejudice is non-existent...
...Among those rules can be prohibitions of discrimination against homosexuals...
...Why is it so difficult for the Carlins in our midst to distinguish between human persons who happen to be gay and their sexual activity...
...Calvert missed my ironic intent...
...It just happened...
...Finally, James Kukitz's readings of St...
...Instead, it must be shown that gays and lesbians as a class are signficantly inferior to heterosexuals as a class in terms, e.g., of income, occupational prestige, educational levels, quality of housing -- the indices normally used to discover invidious social inequalities...
...Patronizing piety New York, N.Y...
...The fruit of that experience is found in a Foreign Affairs article (Winter 1985/86) and in a new book, I s L0uis n/tJ r itp Ig e010gitaI tubtr Doctor o! Philosophy and Master of Arts in i t0rital t!je010gp Master of Arts in religi0u ztul iez additional information...
...A set of rules for ensuring minimum social order" is a fine ambition for lawmakers...
...It was the first manifestation of our personhood as a homosexual, tt was our gift and sign from God on how he wanted us to function as human beings...
...Paul had no concept of homosexuality as an unwilled, irreversible orientation...
...Someday, we gay people will get the opportunity to influence heterosexuals about life...
...First, Paul never used the word homosexual in any of his writings...
...And what about married gays and (talk about trendy) "bi's": why should they be safe, considering that they could even be guilty of sacrilege...
...Tying legislative questions into the questions of "the inner life, quest for perfection" calls that distinction into question...
...Albany, N.Y...
...The opinions of the majority, no matter how "highly" held, regarding the morality of this kind of conduct are, quite frankly, totally irrelevant...
...To the Editors: Mr...
...If it is, why doesn't Mr...
...Paper, S12.95 Also by Gabriel Fac~" THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT AND CHRISTIAN FAITH A systematic examinatlan of the theological positions of the Religious Right which form the basis for their moral and political stands, and an assessment of where these polltical positions allgn wlth and where they are In contradiction to claNlcal Christian teachings...
...the outlawing of mixed-race marriages 9 . . just to cite a few...
...There was no such word in the Greek of his day...
...JAMES c. KuKrrz It just happenod Atlanta, Ga...
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...Were the American Catholic hierarchy fully committed to the struggle for equality and equity for women, I suspect they would have refrained from the excesses of a partisan, single-issue attack on Ferraro...
...If a gay rights ordinance is proposed, why not protect the rights of the persons involved, but add explicitly that you don't endorse homosexual conduct...
...It just happened...
...Probably none of them has been threatened with abuse or violence, or has experienced the pain of separation from families or church...
...These were civilizations not dominated by heterosexual patriarchism . . . . For Carlin and most heterosexuals, the gay lifestyle is synonymous with sex...
...role in creating the political setting for diplomacy...
...Probably none of them has had his job or housing threatened because he was gay...
...Carlin adds that "the wrongness of homosexuality has been held" by our civilization "since time out of mind...
...degree For further information contact: Rev...
...This Revised Edition reflects recent theological dialogue as well as the author's own areas of study' In recent years: Fackre has Included a new section on narrative theology In general, an expanded discussion of the role of Scripture In theology, and a revised Iteotrnent of eschatology...
...and (3) that the principal argument for the moral legitimacy of homosexual conduct is lhe pernicious theory that all conduct is morally permissible if it doesn't result in direct and tangible injury to anyone...
...Legislation neither approves nor disapproves of such conduct...
...Send check: COMET, Box 3481, Norfolk, VA 23514...
...Most of the writers seem to believe that there exist serious problems of discrimination against homosexuals in housing, employment, etc., and that gay rights laws would be helpful in correcting this situation...
...The updated bibliography and the appenaix with study guides Increase the usefulness of thls already popular Introduction to the rudlmerits of the Christian falth...
...2) I don't think my' 'buddies" or anyone else should beat up homosexuals in Brooklyn or eisewhere...
...This is a neat trick, since the modem conception of homosexual orientation is only a hundred years old . . . . No, I don't think that Mr...
...Instead, because of the highly visible attacks of several prominent bishops, the Catholic church appeared to be reactionary rather than progressive, and failed to celebrate the history-making candidacy of the first woman ever to be nominated by a major party to high national office...
...Letters of not more than 250 or 300 words naturally have a better chance of being published...
...Saunders is closer to Friedman than Ajami...
...monthly in advance for more than three times...
...To the Editors: David Carlin shows complete ignorance about homosexuality...
...slavery...
...The essays are ushered onstage with a number of brief but provocative introductions and, at one point, even with some of Harrington's own poetry...
...In the article Saunders distinguishes between diplomatic negotiations and the political process which makes diplomacy possible...
...Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, $16.95, 278 pp...
...However, we are not opposed.to protecting the civil rights of these bishops...
...But though I'm delighted to find people willing to argue with me (and even a few willing to call me unpleasant names -all of them, I'm sure, deserved), I'm afraid the issues I attempted to raise really weren't joined...
...To the Editors: David Carlin's commentary on "gay rights" ["Stamp of Approval," November 29] is disappointing to one who has admired his previous work...
...can help create...
...The official church has always done this: the American Catholic bishops in 1976, for example, wrote, "Homosexuals, like everyone else, should not suffer from prejudice against basic human rights...
...There was no choice, no preference, etc...
...His friends must be lucky people...
...In the notorious column in question I was chiefly concerned to assert three propositions: (1) that gay rights legislation aims at and has the effect of provid...
...Halley's T-shisq Halley's T-shirt...
...His interpretation (echoed by George Kish) of Romans 1:24-27 is derived, I strongly suspect, from John Boswell's intriguing but frequently unsound work of gay-revisionist history, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality...
...To the Editors: David Carlin spends so much time on his pre-emptive selfaccusation of homophobia that he almost forgets to make his main point, which is that he is "extremely dubious" about gay rights legislation...
...The secular gay fights movement, and to some extent its churchly counterpart, may well be promoting a false theory of morality (though no more than all those who think they can one day get some kind of "vote" that birth control is no sin...
...He specifically speaks of those who abandon what is natural for them [in I I II Commonweal welcomes letters on subjects treated in its pages...
...9ree or the Master of Theology (lh.M...
...Saviour Monastery Elmira, NY April 4, 5, 6, 1986 THE COMPANY AT KIRKRIDGE A supportive network for contemporary Christians women-men, cleric-lay CatholicProtestant, in the search for meaningful patterns of friendship, mutual support and challenge...
...There was no choice, no preference for us...
...Carlin -- shoddy moral reasoning should not block an important social goal -- eliminating discrimination whenever it rears its ugly head . . . . JOHN J. RATIGAN Saintly dickering Whitehall, Pa...
...Rather, it has consistently condemned homosexual acts for heterosexuals, as is so in every reference to such acts in the Old and New Testaments...
...9 9 9 JOSEPH MASHECK Eyeing the goal Providence R.I...
...Most gays, like myself, can also remember that instant in time when it was a person not dressed differently and of the same sex, who brought about the same sudden physical and psychological response...
...JAMES McCREA Panicky befuddlement New York, N.Y...
...What about two men or women friends living together, or attempting to: inspections by one married deacon and one secularist skeptic, just to be sure...
...But there is compelling evidence that gays are receiving less harassment...
...Had he such insight the Romans passage would make no sense, since one cannot condemn others for abandoning that which they never possessed...
...Paul and St...
...Secular and church history are replete with cases of appl2cing one's standard of morality -- usually amply biblically proof-texted in support thereof -- to others (denial of birth control methods...
...Carlin closes with an allusion to some of his best friends who are gay...
...In Brief TAKING SIDES: THE EDUCATION OF A MILITANT MIND, by Michael Harrington...
...At the outset of 1986 Saunders sees a modest but crucial U.S...
...ing moral legitimacy for homosexual conduct...
...JOAN CHITTISTER on WOMEN-CHURCH at Mt...
...Certificate...
Vol. 113 • January 1986 • No. 2
