Travelgate Survivors
York, Byron
Travelgate Survivors In their first in-depth interview, former White House travel office workers tell how they found themselves in the middle of the Clintons' first big scandal. by Byron...
...And the five of us that happened to be in town went up to meet with David Watkins and Brian Foucart...
...After the Gearan call, did you ever hear from anyone in the White House...
...After first saying the documents might be covered by executive privilege, White House Counsel Abner Mikva turned over 400 of those pages, and then abruptly resigned, saying he wanted to spend more time with his family...
...But then everyone you're talking to, all your family and friends, are advising, "You better do it, because this is the government...
...And then about a week later I called the office and was told it was in the mail...
...JM: Moe made the mistake of saying, "John is a registered Democrat...
...RVE: That was it for me...
...When we spoke with the FBI, most of our attorneys asked for either letters of immunity or letters stating that we were neither targets nor subjects of the investigation...
...RVE: I hate politics...
...JM: On December 31, 1993, seven months after I was fired, I got a letter from the President and Mrs...
...That's their job...
...Former White House counsel Bernard Nussbaum testified that Quinn—at that time the vice president's chief of staff—recommended a total stonewall on the question of whether to allow Justice Department investigators access to Vincent Foster's office in the days after his death...
...How they began to notice the odd behavior of their new colleagues...
...I think Foster started to question what they were doing, and if he had had ten minutes with Billy Dale, Vince Foster would have said, "Wait a minute, we're making a mistake here...
...RVE: It was a very difficult, emotional process, because people were just stunned, people we had worked with for years were just stunned...
...Of course, we knew all those people too, we'd been on the road at different times over the years...
...And we had our staff pins and turned them in...
...He basically came in and I'm sitting right across from Billy and thinking, "Thirty-two years and this man is riding out of the White House on the wheel hub of a van without seats...
...BB: For myself, the next two weeks were pretty much just an endless array of phone calls...
...As we walked in, Catherine was sitting in the back room...
...Friend of Bill (how rarely one hears that term these days...
...BB: Because when you leave that building it's not like you come back the next day and finish...
...and Brasseux, $20,000...
...MM: There were two words, mismanagement—BB: And poor accounting...
...El 28 The American Spectator November 1995...
...Just the constant threat...
...MM: My dad said that he had talked with a reporter from the Tuscaloosa News, and my dad told him, "I don't know where these people come up with stuff like that, but I know darn well my son is not a crook...
...MM: One seat and the driver...
...I hadn't done anything...
...Once you're out that door you're not getting back in, so we wanted to make sure we touched all our bases and picked up all our belongings...
...the communications people had radios, and we turned them in...
...And I said, "It sure is...
...RVE: I was at the Price Club...
...BB: They felt their responsibilities as journalists...
...BB: She came and went as she pleased...
...She was surprised that the press had so many questions, so many inquiries, and I think that caught her off guard...
...Will you do this...
...You're sort of surprised and think, "I can't believe I have to go through this, I can't believe I've got to do it...
...The only one missing was Catherine [Cornelius...
...JD: Let's just say I've gained more since this than I had before...
...They would say, "We have apologized...
...We live three blocks away from each other, and he stopped to drop off some boxes that I didn't have room for because of the rain and this pickup I had...
...McLarty has told me to advise you that your administrative leave is being extended...
...My dad passed away in November '93, and Billy's in February or March of last year...
...Dee Dee Myers was at the next table, she stopped by and chatted for a while...
...We had an interview by the IRS...
...So I came home on Sunday...
...What were the next few weeks like...
...Not pictured: Robert Van Eimerein...
...But she had no idea where the travel office was, so I had to take her to where I was to go to be fired [laughter...
...John McSweeney, 13 years in the travel office, currently with the State Department...
...face questions about her role in the takeover Six of the Travel Office Seven, in happier times with Ronald Reagan (1...
...The Secret Service said, "No, you can't come through here...
...It never happened...
...We sat down at the table .. . BB: Nervously...
...RVE: He came into the office to have a passport picture taken...
...Clinton wishing me a happy birthday...
...And, like Billy's father, my father passed away before any of this came about, as far as any clearing goes...
...JM: [to RVE] You got two...
...Who the hell do these people think they are...
...I'm trying to find an attorney...
...Granted, we all lost our jobs, but this poor man—after 32 years you're supposed to go out in glory, and he's sitting on the wheel hub...
...The whole time he was in the military, which was twenty-one years, and the whole time he's been at the White House, he's been working in secured areas doing all this kind of stuff, and you don't stay in a place like that very long if you're a crook...
...I made two mistakes in voting for President...
...The phone never stopped ringing, because as days went by, more and more things seemed to pop up around the White House...
...Maughan, $44,000...
...Jack was concerned, and properly concerned, about setting an unfortunate precedent for the future, and the institutional need of the White House to preserve confidentiality...
...I wound up in a room where all the files that were going to clear us of all the charges were located...
...MM: I only got one...
...McLarty has told me to advise you...
...And he said, "Mr...
...JM: I called my brother-in-law...
...McLarty has told me to advise you that your administrative leave is being extended...
...I continued my vacation...
...But former Assistant Director Gary Wright, who, like Dale, retired after the firings, is expected to testify...
...I was not in the mood to answer questions about how to do my job...
...Was that when you first learned that you were suspected criminals...
...JD: I contacted a lawyer when the FBI called me...
...JD: It seemed to be a pretty normal morning, even though we knew there was a meeting...
...How about Harry Thomason...
...had a White House pass...
...Rodham's illness...
...And you know the thanks I got for that...
...Eventually, we all carried our boxes and stuff out, we each probably had a box, maybe two...
...JM: In this town...
...You're out there in a time of need, and someone comes through for you...
...He just kept repeating it...
...He said, "We'd like you out by twelve noon," and at that point I kinda blacked out...
...They were there at our desks working away, without even giving us the opportunity to go through our desks and clean anything out...
...He said, "Brokaw just said that the White House has fired the travel office...
...And this is the United States of America...
...JM: And Gary had the disadvantage of having to ride back with these people, the people that were doing it...
...How were you finally reinstated...
...The purported removal and/or destruction of exculpatory evidence," U.S...
...MM: It was kind of a normal day, that Tuesday, except that she was there when we first went in...
...Did anybody know who he was...
...Then I get a call from this young lady from the FBI, and she said, "We'd like to have a talk...
...BB: In truth, after the fact, whether you are Republican or Democrat—and I realize it became a partisan issue—the support we got was from the Republicans...
...BB: I had asked Brian Foucart as this was breaking up—Watkins wasn't there long, he sort of was talking as he was walking to the doorRVE: Surgically...
...Still, their costs pale in comparison to those of Billy Dale, whose legal bills are well into six figures...
...Now congressional investigators are preparing to question White House insiders about the scandal that first revealed some of the most troubling traits of the Clinton administration—the Travel Office affair...
...I voted for Nixon for reelection, and the second one was: I voted for Bill Clinton...
...RVE: The normal press briefing, and that's when we first learned about FBI involvement...
...We were parked fairly close together...
...But Republicans now wield the majority's power to subpoena...
...JM: Fear...
...And in that room were 15 people, none of whom, except myself, had a White House pass...
...JD: It had already gotten to be a big story, and your relatives and everybody else are all of sudden looking at these accusations and you're thinking, well, who should I call...
...Marlin Fitzwater called me and told me I was off his Christmas list...
...We got fired in May, so I got one in August of '93, and one in August of '94...
...Cousin of Bill, Catherine Cornelius, will "Who the hell is the president to take my constitutional rights away...
...JD: I didn't get one...
...I thought I would get to talk to him, but instead he sent his secretary out to take me over to the travel office to sign out and to leave...
...Were you surprised at the reaction of the press...
...She was just angry and disappointed...
...RVE: She always had a meeting to go to, there was always something that came up to keep her out of the office...
...MM: As we used to say in the Air Force, it's just a "CYA" situation...
...It was very emotional...
...I told her, "Come on out...
...RVE: Sloppy accounting...
...BB: And the word was beginning to spread through the building, so a lot of the people we knew were coming by...
...In mid-September Clinger's investigators complained that the administration had refused to turn over 907 pages of documents sought in the inquiry...
...Billy came in and Barney came in, then one or two of these guys came in, and sometime during the morning Billy said, "We've got this meeting," and I said OK...
...That's the God's honest truth...
...Ralph (Moe) Maughan, 19 years in the travel office and now with the Department of Defense...
...He said, "You have to come in the next day and sign out and be terminated...
...And that period went by pretty quickly—the days just seemed to fly by...
...I was doing the advance in San Diego...
...BB: I remember [Dee Dee Myers] was surprised at the strong reaction...
...The McLartys and the Panettas, you take the report they wrote [the White House Management Review...
...They tried to spin a story with the people who knew more about the story than they did...
...BB: No, I got one...
...BB: We were all in a bit of a state of shock at that point...
...I later saw Watkins in the hallway, later that afternoon, and I asked him if in fact anything had been done about that—was I gonna get it in writing?—and he said, "Yes, you will get it in writing, but it may not be done today, we may have to mail it to you...
...During a series of on-and-off sessions likely to stretch over several weeks, the hearings are expected to focus first on the various official investigations of Travelgate, and then turn to under-oath examination of the key White House figures...
...I was driving back from the Price Club when I heard it on the radio, and when I got back there was a message on my machine from Mark Gearan...
...I said, "What are you talking about...
...In fact, they were giving me all the information...
...JD: I don't recall if I called or who called, but we called the White House garage to see if, since we had all our boxes and stuff, there was any way they might send a van over for us...
...like I was going to attack her 1 wound up in a room where all the files that were going to clear us of all the charges were located...
...Then you start getting the phone calls from the press, and you learn more about what's going on, and you realize you better find yourself a lawyer...
...Former White House Counsel Bernard Nussbaum, Deputy Counsel William Kennedy Smith, former White House administrators David Watkins and Patsy Thomasson, former media aide and Cornelius boyfriend Jeff Eller, as well as many others, are expected to testify...
...In late September, the White House handed over a few more documents, but at press time, the status of about 300 pages was in doubt...
...And how am I going to pay for this...
...They liked you...
...Two days after she got back from her honeymoon, she was called by the Justice Department and had to justify where she got themoney to pay for her wedding, where she got the money to pay for her reception, were we invited, did we talk about the travel office...
...I hate Democrats...
...BB: There wasn't much back and forth after that...
...The five are John Dreylinger, who worked 26 years in the travel office and is now with the General Services Administration...
...I said hi, she said hi, and I walked back to the telegraph office and went about my normal routine, turning on switches and equipment, making a pot of coffee, catching "Good Morning, America...
...I just felt so bad for him...
...JD: I met him once, during Mr...
...RVE: No...
...MM: They took us to each one of our cars...
...Because she saw it on TV, she heard it on the radio...
...MM: The meeting was in a conference room on the fourth floor, next to the Indian Treaty Room...
...I was urged by one senior White House official, Jack Quinn . . . not to permit law enforcement agents to enter Vince Foster's office at all," Nussbaum told the Senate committee...
...Readers may remember Quinn from last summer's Senate Whitewater hearings...
...FBI agents walking around your neighborhood, talking to your neighbors...
...I figured, how many times can I be fired...
...Together they will chronicle Travelgate from the ground level: how...
...And the five workers who were eventually reinstated to federal jobs outside the White House will also tell their stories...
...Van Eimerein has spent $35,000...
...About one o'clock in the morning, which was like seven o'clock back here, the phone rang...
...Had any of you ever met David Watkins before all this...
...I just felt so bad for him at that time...
...It was my youngest son saying, "Dad, Tom Brokaw just said you've been fired...
...And you get good marks for that here...
...RVE: I walked back toward my desk and there was someone sitting there, and she started asking me questions about how we do this, how we do that...
...Already, Republican requests for documents have led to an impasse with the White House...
...I called mine to tell her that I'd be home early...
...JD: We carried them out into the courtyard outside our office and threw them into the back of this van...
...It was just having a good time with your co-workers and friends, no clue that anything was about to happen—when they obviously knew what was happening...
...But it was just a nice evening...
...I think most of us got one from the Justice Department...
...RVE: I'm sitting right across from Billy and thinking, "Thirty-two years and this man is riding out of the White House on the wheel hub of a van without seats...
...One of the agents said, "Is that a tape recorder...
...He's asking David Watkins, "Do you want to tell them, or should I?" And David Watkins says, "You go ahead and tell them...
...BB: Of course we all appeared before a grand jury...
...His lawyer says Dale intends to show that Clinton White House officials removed evidence that could exonerate him, a contention that is supported at least in part by the administration's own report on Travelgate, as well as a subsequent investigation by the General Accounting Office...
...MM: About one o'clock or one-thirty, something like that...
...BB: It was short and sweet...
...And that got me...
...What about Vincent Foster...
...The other thing that was on my mind when I got home was the criminal aspect of it...
...T HE SCANDAL HAS BEEN TERRIBLY costly for the .i...
...It's not really clear you're fixing to get fired, but you knew there were going to be some changes made...
...BB: One time is all I remember...
...to r.): John McSweeney, Gary Wright, Billy Dale, John Dreylinger, Barney Brasseux, Byron York is a writer and television proand Ralph (Moe) Maughn...
...But there was a little line at the bottom that said "at this time...
...I'm not on administrative leave...
...The congressional hearings, to be chaired by Pennsylvania Republican William Clinger, will be under no such constraints (although Clinger pledges to stay away from issues that could affect the criminal case...
...My daughter called and she was upset about it, because I felt I heard in her voice this question: "Dad, did you do anything...
...But before the original 15 days were up, Mark Gearan called...
...Indicted on charges that he embezzled $55,000 from the funds used to pay for press trips, he will be defending himself in a federal courtroom while the hearings are underway on Capitol Hill...
...JM: [to BB] You didn't get one...
...RVE: And we had to go out through a checkout procedure...
...That sticks in my mind...
...What was the end like...
...They're the ones who went out on the floor and voiced their support for us, introduced legislation to get us reimbursed for our legal fees...
...Nobody knew what to do...
...So, lo and behold, this van does show up in the courtyard, someone comes in and says, "I'm out here...
...And out we go down to the Ellipse...
...That's what's going to come out tomorrow...
...Dreylinger, $34,000...
...He said he didn't think that would be a problem and they would try getting it that day...
...She spotted me and she bolted, she ran by me out the door like I was going to attack her...
...And that's why Billy Dale has been indicted, because they've got to find something...
...Jeff Eller obviously knew...
...Gary Wright, the assistant director, is working in Seoul, South Korea...
...When Billy came in, I described who the lady was, because I'd never seen her before, and Billy said, "Yeah, that's Patsy...
...JD: The first call I made was to him...
...I've been fired...
...We all crawl into the van...
...I was in there about eight o'clock...
...McSweeneyestimates he has spent $56,000...
...This was five months that we sat around on our ass, not being fired but being on administrative leave—with pay...
...Harry Thomason will be called to explain his scheme with First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton to sack the workers and award the White House travel business to his own firm...
...So we all kind of went our merry ways, only it wasn't very merry...
...There were people at every desk doing our work...
...So all these questions began to surface, and I was just inundated with calls for a two-week period...
...JM: But it hit me that if Vince Foster and Billy Dale had had ten minutes together, this never would have happened...
...Well, I was sitting in Ireland...
...We realized the White House had made a big mistake, and we felt that they felt they had made a big mistake, and that they were going to do whatever it tookJM: And before we even get that far, the Tuesday after I went in that Monday to sign out, Mark Gearan called all of us to tell us that we hadn't been fired...
...So my lawyer actually told Cliff Sloan and the White House how to get out of this thing...
...And in that room were 15 people, none of whom, except myself...
...Very nice young lady...
...Recently they gathered at a suburban Virginia restaurant to tell their story as a group, in detail, for the first time...
...No they haven't...
...laughter] But I am, and have been...
...October of 1994...
...Last year Congress awarded them approximately $30,000 each to pay the bills, but in all but one case, that has not been enough to cover the actual cost of legal representation...
...Being called in by Internal Revenue and sitting down and the first thing they say is, "You have to realize, we may be auditing you, but it will have nothing to do with what we're doing right now...
...I did have a friend whom I've known for years give me a call—it could have been the second day—and tell me, "Barney, as your friend, not as a reporter, I want to let you know that the stories that you're going to read tomorrow are going to be negative, because our obligation is to report what they are saying, and what they are saying is something you're probably not going to like...
...But the judge in the case is a recent Clinton appointee who has shown little patience for Dale's position...
...She was never there...
...In the course of facing investigators from the FBI, the Justice Department, and the IRS, they have all run up considerable legal bills...
...It's starting to rain a little bit at this point...
...Why don't we put them back to work...
...fired travel office staff...
...RVE: He used the term "the best way to do this is surgically...
...laughter] And he just kept repeating it, and I kept saying, "Are you going to let me know . .?" and he said, "Mr...
...JM: Wishing me all of the happiness that I so richly deserve...
...MM: I think I had three of them...
...RVE: Actually, my birthday is in August...
...JD: We were all opening our drawers, kind of dumping them out into these boxes, grabbing this and that, and we walked down to the Secret Service...
...Watkins and blab, blab, blab, and he's got something to say," and then he started in...
...There was no one in there who could sign me out, because there were five or six people from the Little Rock travel agency, there were five or six people from American Express, and they were all scurrying around, going through the files...
...JM: And who the hell is the president to take my constitutional rights away...
...And there's a certain appreciation you have for that—you don't forget that...
...These words are coming from the podium at the White House, from the spokesman of the President of the United States...
...MM: If I remember correctly, from the original massacre up on the fourth floor, Watkins said that we were going to be on 15 days administrative leave with pay, with an additional 30 days for health benefits and stuff like that...
...What was Wednesday, May 19 like...
...We sat there and we talked about never seeing something like this happen the whole time I was at the White House...
...I had to be escorted to Watkins's office, where I sat outside for about 20 minutes...
...District Court Judge Gladys Kessler wrote in an August ruling, "is not—and will not become—the central issue in this rather straightforward embezzlement case...
...Congressional investigators say they will seek more information from the First Lady herself, but are not yet sure how...
...ducer in Washington...
...The phones were ringing every hour, people asking: Will you be on this show...
...I only got the one in October of '93...
...The press would discover that there had been this Catherine Cornelius memo that had been out way back when, so maybe this wasn't a result of the National Performance Review...
...Billy called, at Watkins's direction...
...But we went our ways and did our checkout procedure, and we would meet in the office, and eventually the press briefing came on in the afternoon...
...And they came in and introduced themselves, showed me their credentials, had a seat, and I laid my little tape recorder on the table...
...And she said, "The Bureau doesn't allow these interviews to be recorded," and I said, "Well, that being the case, there's not going to be an interview until I get an attorney...
...We called from out there to see if we should come in, because many times when we got back late we didn't, so we called and they said, "You'd better come in...
...All I can tell you is to be patient...
...It was disgusting...
...He put the Justice Department, the FBI, the IRS—everyone we have had to talk to in two-and-a-half years—he put them on notice to find something...
...JD: Probably most of us called our wives at some point...
...And it's not a Republican or a Democratic deal, it was based on protecting, diverting, deflecting...
...What were your lives like during this time...
...What follows is an abridged version of their recollections...
...I saw no reason to have an attorney...
...Up until that time I think there was only a brief conversation among us...
...JD: Barney said, "Are we going to get something in writing to document why we're being terminated...
...And of course I'm getting in touch with attorneys...
...The American Spectator November 1995 23 said that, as a result of the National Performance Review and the Peat Marwick audit, they found that the office was severely mismanaged and they could certainly do a better job with their own people...
...So I was talking with Brian, and I told him that I would like something in writing from them...
...Will you be on that show...
...And how they were all fired on May 19, 1993—and publicly branded as criminals...
...MM: We knew something was up...
...by Byron York e've had Whitewater and Waco...
...RVE: I got a happy birthday letter, too...
...You know we have a duty to do what we're supposed to do, and we'll get both sides of each story we cover, so the rest will come out later...
...JM: That was the mistake [the White House] made...
...Do any of you have political affiliations...
...I went back to sleep, got up in the morning and turned on CNN, and by that time people were starting to call, wanting to know the story...
...MM: If I'm not mistaken, when Watkins did come in, Billy introduced the rest of us to him: "This is Mr...
...Even though I was fired I could have retired...
...MM: [Maughan and other staffers had remained in Washington.] When I walked through the door Tuesday morning, Patsy Thomasson was standing at the front desk, on the phone...
...MM: My wife found out from John that I'd been fired...
...Dee Dee Myers obviously knew...
...RVE: Yes...
...MM: I will say that I'm still a registered Democrat, but I will never vote for another one as long as I live...
...JD: One seat, and a couple of guys sitting on the wheel hub, and the rest of us kind of sitting there hanging on to the side...
...I haven't done anything wrong...
...And I very much appreciated that call...
...RVE: I do remember Billy asking, "Well, we have two people out of the country...
...RVE: Billy Dale indicated that there was a meeting set up with David Watkins at 10 o'clock that morning...
...26 The American Spectator November 1995 Do you think any of this will have a lasting effect...
...MM: We were all trying to get our things...
...JD: We got back [from the California trip] about one in the morning, got to our houses about three...
...House Government Reform and Oversight Committee hearings, scheduled for October, promise to reveal new and potentially damaging details about a now-familiar tale: how Clinton aides schemed to take over the White House Travel Office and steer its business to Arkansas cronies—accusing seven long-time White House employees of corruption and unleashing the FBI on them in the process...
...Jeff Eller joined us for a drink and we just had a great time that night...
...But that shouldn't enter into it...
...JM: She was in the office that Tuesday morning...
...And obviously, when she mentioned the FBI, that's when the big lump goes in your throat and you go, "Oh, no...
...As we walked in, Catherine was sitting in the back room...
...JD: I think Gary Wright was on a White House trip...
...Should we all get one lawyer...
...JD: And there was always this irritation with everything the White House did...
...And when I said that I thought, "Cover your own rear end, get your little tape recorder out...
...It wasn't like 24 The American Spectator November 1995 "God, I gotta get out tomorrow and find a job...
...And I said, "Wait a minute...
...JM: I'm in Ireland on vacation...
...And that as of then, that was it for us—and they'd like us out of the building by noon...
...BB: That's right...
...Dale, who declined to be interviewed for this story, is scheduled to stand trial October 26...
...The fact that they created even that little smidgen of doubt that maybe something really was wrong, that I'd been part of something, just infuriates you...
...If I'm not mistaken, we had originally had a meeting scheduled with David Watkins that day, and something came up, and they moved it over to the next day...
...I said, "Well, how do I rebut these charges...
...MM: About two or three weeks into it, two FBI agents came out to my house...
...BB: One of us [Gary Wright] was working on the road halfway around the world and being fired at the same time—which I thought was a neat trick...
...With Quinn in the counsel's office and the White House again determined to stonewall, it would seem that the Clintons' secrets are safe...
...JM: I think what happened was: It was my lawyer who finally got around to talking to the White House, saying, "Do you people realize that after five months the Justice Department has given out letters to these five saying that they're not a subject or a target...
...Tom Brokaw fired me...
...Of course to this day I've never seen anything...
...The trip arrived on Monday night [May 17] and the White House stenographers invited me to have a drink with them in the lounge at the hotel...
...I proceeded to go in and try to sign out...
...RVE: Right...
...One figure who won't appear is fired Travel Office Director Billy Dale...
...I was in a little different situation, because at the time I was fired I had 25 years of service...
...And Cliff Sloan said, "Oh really...
...Whatever the outcome of that dispute, the president's choice of Jack Quinn as new White House counsel does not bode well for full disclosure...
...Is there really something to this...
...BB: That was my concern...
...No one...
...Almost immediately after I got home I started getting phone calls—members of the press and everybody else wanting to know would I appear on this show or that show...
...He said, "Mr...
...Whether for political purposes or not, they still come through for you, and that means something...
...JD: My wife was pretty mad...
...When the White House says something, it's our duty to report it...
...Cornelius was planted in the office to collect what the White House claimed was evidence against them...
...So Monday I showed up at the regular time, and I couldn't get in...
...I hate Republicans...
...Barney Brasseux, 11 years in the travel office, now with the General Services Administration...
...It was not based on finding the truth...
...and Robert Van Eimerein, the newcomer with 9 years in the travel office, now with the Commerce Department...
...JD: We were there first...
...22 The American Spectator November 1995 that was planned long before the Clintons moved to the White House...
...She spotted me and she bolted...
...When you leave the government you have to go through a checkout procedure, you have to visit various offices and get it signed off on that you turned in your passport or you don't owe money and all that...
...We all left the office together to go up for this short surgical procedure, and then when we came back, the office was manned...
...Genial and obviously comfortable with each other after years of working together, they recounted how they found themselves at the center of the scandal that started off the Clintons' troubled time in Washington...
...In due course they will force the administration's hand, and the story of Travelgate—the whole story—will finally be told...
...Billy Dale's daughter was married last October...
...The American Spectator November 1995 25 I've never had to deal with an attorney before, and had not a clue as to where do I find an attorney and what kind of attorney should I get...
...Weren't you all fired shortly after the infamous $200 haircut trip to California...
...That they have that power to be able to do that to your family...
...They both went to their graves not really knowing...
...And I believe I called my son-in-law's father, who is an attorney...
Vol. 28 • November 1995 • No. 11
