Soviet Presswatch/Updating the Pozner File: An Interview
Young, Cathy
SOVIET PRESSWATCH UPDATING THE POZNER FILE: AN INTERVIEW JT ust when you thought it was safe to go back to the bookstore here comes, from Avon Book% a paperback of Vladimir Pozner's Parting with...
...Or jobless people...
...VP: I know there is...
...For anyone to tell me that I can't invite Yeltsin is looking for trouble because I'd make this public immediately...
...It's very gratifying to see that the work you've done is appreciated in two countries...
...probably give it to the publisher who brings it out the fastest...
...CY: Such as...
...His most recent appointee, Leonid Kravchenko [the head of the state broadcasting company], came in with the statement that he was the president's man and he would see to it that the president's policies were well represented and defended on television...
...Otherwise, I would stay and I would fight...
...I still say that...
...And second, would Pozner really fight the restoration of dictatorship...
...VP: Let me say one thing...
...Television is] different from the printed press, which is no longer controlled by the party or by the government...
...And I say this with all due modesty, but I know that I have been able to overcome that...
...There was a time when the only thing you heard about on American television and in the newspapers concerning the Soviet Union was dissidents, and it was dissidents this and dissidents that—and gradually people began to think that in the Soviet Union everyone was a dissident or at least there was a whole lot of them...
...VP: Yes, I agree with you...
...40 THE AMERICAN SPECTATOR MAY 1991...
...Vladimir Pozner: Well, I came here on the 13th of February to do some public speaking for about two weeks and that was followed by the book tour which, indeed, coincides with the paperback edition of my book...
...CY: I had the feeling, reading your book, that some of your comments were rather behind the pace of political evolution in the Soviet Union...
...it's a social democracy...
...Television has always been government- or, in reality, party-controlled, and that's the way President Gorbachev would like to see it...
...And more importantly, the [governments] of Western countries, the United States included—I don't think they actually cared about human rights in the Soviet Union...
...The Companion looks at politics and the markets from life's bleacher seats...
...CY: On your show, have you dealt with the Lithuanian issue...
...VP: I don't know if socialism can even work...
...The good thing is that [TV stations in the republics] are now independent...
...What I try to do is get dialogue going and look for solutions, rather than simply say, everything is bad, everything is hopeless...
...And when [you] see a rich society like this one [and] you see misery and poverty almost like in Bombay—there's something wrong with this kind of society...
...I [also] had very negative reviews in the Boston Globe, in the New York Times, in the Los Angeles Times, I was attacked by a great many critics—and I was attacked, it wasn't the book...
...I don't believe in those kinds of inflammatory statements...
...If things in the Soviet Union were to take a drastic turn for the worse, toward dictatorship, would you ever consider emigrating to the United States...
...So we have a good relationship and I suspect I might have him on...
...However, he did not do it in writing...
...I have been attacked by the right wing in this country, by the right wing in the Soviet Union, by people I consider to be hardliners—and, in a way, Bukovsky is a hardliner...
...VP: It's an interesting question because up until now, I have enjoyed, I think, about as much freedom as any person can ever hope to enjoy: I choose the subjects of my shows, they are live, and people can say what they want—and they say some pretty strong things...
...one girl from Vilnius had 38 THE AMERICAN SPECTATOR MAY 1991 [brought] a toy tank with her which she, on the program, presented to Marshal [Dmitri] Yazov from the children of Vilnius...
...CY: The revelations in the Soviet press over the past few years about the state of medical care, the homelessness, the poverty—did you know any of that before...
...It has a new afterword that deals with events since the hardcover appeared last spring—events that prompted Pozner to join the great Soviet exodus from the Communist party...
...both of them do have their newspapers and magazines, but there are many [others] that are not controlled and afford very different views...
...Of course, the whole point of being a writer is to tell people what to think but why not make an occasional exception...
...I have to say that I'm proud of the kind of people who have attacked me—George Will, Pat Buchanan...
...And since I was very pro-Soviet and very much a patriot, I defended my country...
...CY: There were attempts to set up a Russian Republic television .. . VP: That is happening...
...VP: Yes indeed, the same book...
...This is just one example...
...VP: He was supposed to be on my show just before the New Year...
...Dial the toll-free number...
...But we'll always be skeptical...
...CY: What do you think explains that...
...Have you signed any of those...
...Its editors aren't beltway insiders...
...And there was never anything good in the Soviet Union—whereas in fact, there were some wonderful things...
...VP: Well, I happen to believe that a country that was 77 percent illiterate only seventy years ago and became a literate country did a pretty wonderful job...
...However, he had to go out to the Far North [to meet with the coal miners], and he pulled out about five days before the show, which put me in a difficult position...
...A letter was published in Moscow News under the heading of "a criminal government wishing to stay in power...
...SOVIET PRESSWATCH UPDATING THE POZNER FILE: AN INTERVIEW JT ust when you thought it was safe to go back to the bookstore here comes, from Avon Book% a paperback of Vladimir Pozner's Parting with Illusions...
...I'm afraid there's only one way to find out, and it's too high a price to pay...
...I'll Cathy Young is the author of Growing Up in Moscow (Ticknor & Fields...
...CY: Would you have Yeltsin as a guest on your show...
...If the Union of Soviet Journalists is a professional union of journalists, he absolutely qualifies as [one...
...VP: I would have bet everything I had on there not being any homeless people in the Soviet Union...
...What a journalist should do is simply provide the information or, if he's a commentator, express his views, which I have definitely done—but signing petitions and letters is something I would not do as a journalist, as a matter of principle...
...But] I would be amazed if Bukovsky showed a somewhat more subtle, more flexible view of things...
...1-800-966-6567 E ( ) Please start me out with a 5-issue trial subscription for $19...
...So I understood I would have to rewrite it—not in the sense of changing anything but simply write it [in Russian] rather than translate it...
...I simply say that I'm [personally] uncomfortable when a person in one country, I don't care what country, appeals to another country [and] allows himself or herself to be used by the politicians in that other country who don't really care about this...
...Their insights will surprise you...
...O to what the hell...
...When human rights are trampled in friendly countries, [or even in China], the United States doesn't react...
...VP: Everyone has the right to do whatever they want, to think what they want...
...So Russia will have a broadcast facility, no doubt about it...
...But, actually, I do not think it would be right to expel the man...
...but that's what they were talking about when they spoke about socialism with a human face, and my view is that [the Western powers that be] were saying, heaven forbid, because if you could go to the man in the street and say, here's a system that guarantees you a job [and] everything else and at the same time all the freedoms, he's going to say, "Now wait a minute, maybe we should have that...
...it was a personal attack on me...
...The letter was not sent to me, but even if it had been, I don't think I would have signed it...
...Thus] I write that in 1967 when I was 32 years old, I joined the Communist party, and the main reason I joined was the feeling that the more good people join the party the better it will be, and if we wanted to change something it had to be through the party...
...The real [reason] why socialism is so feared and so many in the West hated it was because it took away property...
...On what grounds...
...As the Church Lady says on "Saturday Night Live," you be the judge: Cathy Young: You're here to promote the paperback edition of your book...
...I know that when I was working for Radio Moscow on the North American service, [in] the little three-minute reports that I Pozner's Daily Talk"'—I always picked things that Introducing an exotic new financial language: English...
...VP: Because Sweden is not socialist...
...I never saw anyone sleeping on a street or on a park bench...
...VP: No, I have not...
...But I also do [various] specials...
...but I'd have to have him on for a good reason —I mean, I need a subject to talk about...
...In reality, the dissidents were one-tenth of one percent, maybe...
...I don't want to judge these people because they had the courage to risk some very serious threats, which I did not do...
...CY: There was a poll about a year ago that placed you among the five most popular TV personalities in the Soviet Union . . . VP: Actually, there was a poll a year ago that made me number one, but it really depends on how you conduct the poll...
...I'd like to subscribe for a year (17 issues) at $120...
...CY: Would you say that you're better known to American or Soviet television viewers...
...CY: You say in your book that the idea of socialism with a human face would, in fact, be more threatening to [the powers that be] than [the existing Soviet model] .. . VP: Of course it would...
...Average people care...
...If that had to happen, it would have to happen...
...How far do you see yourself going in that direction...
...I mean, I had traveled all over the Soviet Union...
...CY: Are you planning to publish a book in Russian...
...What I'm saying is that it was never a balanced view...
...so let my little voice sound in this chorus of negativism with something positive...
...But my view has always been—if I have to fight, I'm not going to call on the United States or anyone else...
...I think the reason is that they know that I was honest [and] that I was effective because I could say things in a way that Americans could relate to, and I guess that made me especially unpleasant, suspicious, whatever...
...If that were to happen to me, I don't know if I would go to the United States or somewhere else...
...CY: Was there any other way for them to go about it at the time than appeal to the West...
...I think maybe the main reason is that what I attempt to do in my programs is constructive...
...Yeltsin says [that] this is what Gorbachev promised him on more than one occasion...
...And we'll give you a viewpoint you won't get from your broker...
...I will not allow myself to be used by these people...
...We'll send you five issues for $19...
...Or from the networks and newsweeklies...
...They know the economy from the ground up, and they know what moves markets...
...There's something inside me that says, you just don't do that...
...He is not a democrat or a liberal, in my opinion...
...I guess I'm very widely known in both countries, which really puts me in a kind of unique situation...
...However, I tend to think that this might change as things get tighter...
...Yeltsin is not a criminal or [a convict...
...What else can you do...
...CY: In the past, you say you rationalized to yourself certain things you said but never said anything you didn't believe...
...Socialism with a human face as depicted by Marx and so on is something to be very feared, because if it could do what socialism promised, which is to say, guarantee people real security and at the same time all the freedoms .. . CY: Can it do that...
...that was the idea of the Revolution...
...I'll tell you what O think, or at least what I think...
...When I saw the Bukovsky review,] I laughed at what he wrote, because it was so obviously biased...
...Every issue of The Capitalist's Companion comes with the following guarantee: it will contain no jargon, no platitudes, and it won't use "impact" as a verb...
...The problem was that because there's a solid autobiographical flavor to it, and since my life began here, I thought I'd start writing it in English and then simply translate it—but [then] I realized that, first of all, there were many things that I had to explain to an American audience that I did not have to explain to a Soviet [one], and vice versa...
...I've wondered why...
...The basic question is, who owns the property...
...And yet thus far I have not experienced any pressure...
...CY: What if it was a question of going to jail...
...Originally, the way it was supposed to be was that national Channel 2 would be given to the Russian Federation to use...
...This is not human, in my opinion...
...I happen to think that, initially, guaranteed work was a wonderful [thing] and it was wonderful that it was included in the constitution, [though] many things went wrong...
...I would say, probably, the top three is where I am, which is very—you know, it soothes my ego...
...But I don't wish this to be understood as a holier-than-thou kind of statement...
...Of course, [as for] Soviet society, it just fell apart, because it was pretending to be one thing and in reality it was something else...
...But I have to tell youCY: Do you think they're wrong about that...
...If you're not satisfied, we'll send you a pro-rated refund...
...Payment enclosed...
...And yet [it] was a bestseller for eleven weeks...
...I'm simply saying that's what it was about...
...In the absence of any other national television that can compete, this gives the government a very unfair advantage...
...The guaranteed right to a roof over your head and to free medical care—these are very important rights...
...VP: In my last show that I did before coming here, I had 120 children aged 10 to 17 from all over the Soviet Union but basically the hot spots—the Baltics, the Transcaucasian region, Central Asia, and so on—and they talked about the nationalities issue, whether or not to have a union, how they felt about Gorbachev...
...CY: In the aftermath of the events in Vilnius, there were several open letters and appeals by journalists and intellectuals denouncing the attempts to suppress glasnost...
...But the way it was reported blew it up into this major thing...
...It's not even that they weren't as negative...
...We met two weeks later and he [explained why he had to go...
...And I'm not defending the Soviet Union when I say that...
...I respect, to a certain extent, the people who were very courageous, who risked their lives sometimes—but I don't agree with them...
...In his book and in the hourlong conversation we had in New York during his publicity tour, Pozner derided anti-Soviet American commentators such as Marshall Goldman and George Will for telling Americans what to think about him rather than letting them make up their minds...
...I should be finished by the end of April, and I have three publishers who've asked for it in the Soviet Union...
...Name Company Address City State Zip The Capitalist's Companion JOURNAL OF POUTICS AND THE FINANCIAL MARKETS L 175 Fifth Avenue Suite 2503 New York, N.Y...
...That's not true...
...Bukovsky says that in 1967, nobody thought that way...
...VP: Everyone is entitled to his opinion...
...CY: Do you expect this to affect your by Cathy Young freedom to say what you want in your broadcasts...
...Clearly, today, Soviet Central TV is politically slanted towards Gorbachev, and it does not really afford much time for a view that might be considered anti-Gorbachev, which is why Yeltsin had such a problem getting on...
...It wasn't about the book...
...And now, as I understand, they don't want to give Yeltsin Channel 2. Beginning March 31, Russia will have six hours of its own a day on Channel 2; a couple of hours in the morning, a couple of hours in the early evening, and a couple of hours after the evening news...
...Maybe that's one reason I have been able to function the way I have...
...he happens to head the Russian Federation...
...Try The Capitalist's Companion at a special trial rate...
...Of course I picked positive things, and my rationale was very clear: Look, in America, all they ever do is talk negative about the Soviet Union...
...Moscow does not have a hold on them...
...And I think it was true [at one time...
...VP: That was not accepted...
...Maybe it's that the attacks were so personal, you could feel that these people really disliked me...
...They didn't talk about the book...
...and second, no matter how good a translation of any book, it always reads like a translation...
...CY: What's happening with Soviet television today...
...10010 THEE AMERICAN SPECTATOR MAY 1991 39 I felt comfortable with...
...But na I had to keep running into the ones that always pointed out, for the sake of balance how the Soviet state guaranteed its citizens free medical care a roof over one's head, and equal rights for women, and how most people were basically satisfied with the system...
...And I've always wondered why they disliked me...
...VP: As far as need be...
...and if something challenges it, what I would do and what I think most people would do is find a rationale to explain this challenge away...
...I know, absolutely...
...But private ownership is the backbone, as it is with all Scandinavian countries...
...I think that has a lot to do with where you stand in the sense of your own fears...
...I never heard of that...
...CY: It seems to me that a lot of what was said about the Soviet Union here was not nearly as negative as some of the things that are being said now in the Soviet Union about the Soviet past...
...Many things were not true...
...they were different, they were very superficial...
...Example: when the Sunday morning talk shows were moaning last fall that the stock market was headed lower, the Companion was explaining that stocks were done going down...
...When you said that the dissidents were playing into the hands of foreign anti-Soviet propaganda VP: I still say so...
...CY: How often do you appear on [Soviet] TV...
...They come from the trading floors and research departments of Wall Street...
...But by next September, they hope to have enough of their own high-tech equipment to create a channel of their own...
...VP: I do a [monthly] show of my own, a live 90-minute show which used to be called "Sunday Evening with Vladimir Pozner," but we moved it to Friday because Friday has a higher viewership...
...We won't always be right, of course...
...But I always said only what I believed in—although, of course (smiles], I did not say some of the things I believed in...
...What's more, we won't leave our sense of humor in the coat closet when we sit down to write...
...VP: My own belief is that the only time it is morally permissible to emigrate is if you are kicked out of your own country...
...First where did Pozner find those American newspapers and TV stations that were so overwhelmingly negative about the Soviet Union...
...Although I very much support Yeltsin, I kind of got angry at him...
...VP: Absolutely...
...CY: You have said that if there were a real attempt to revert to the old-style dictatorship, you would do your utmost to fight that...
...In short, I usually appear about three times a month, and I like to keep that the limit...
...Sq here it is: she said he said...
...So if that were to happen, I would fight it in any way I could...
...I think there's no doubt in anyone's mind as to what I think about what happened in Vilnius, and I've been very, very outspoken in [my view] that the republics must get their independence...
...CY: My impression, though, is that today, in the Soviet press, there is tremendous respect for these people...
...I know people who did much more—officials like Arbatov...
...Now in this country, it's "Oh, Soviet education is so wonderful"—which it isn't, for a different reason, because while it taught people how to read and write, it was not aimed at helping people think independently...
...I didn't defend the Soviet Union more than other people did...
...I will go for whatever issues are important, [but] what I do not try to do is simply tear down everything and not propose some alternative...
...I'm not saying it's a good idea or a bad idea...
...CY: Do you think they have the right to judge you for not speaking out [as Vladimir Bukovsky did in his review of your book in the New Republic...
...we'll bill you...
...CY: One last question...
...In Sweden, you have a high degree of social democracy, social security, and all of that...
...VP: When you have profound belief in whatever it may be, you protect that belief because it's what makes you live, it's what gives you your drive and your security and so on...
...VP: It's hard to say...
...And that's what I did for many, many years...
...Not only am I well known, but people seem to like me...
...CY: Wasn't there a motion [at last February's convention of Soviet journalists] to expel Kravchenko from the Journalists' Union...
...But I still think that a society should provide some kind of safety net...
...I wish I'd known about them at the time...
...According to statistics I read, 30 percent of all the people who are ill in this country never go to see a doctor because they're afraid the bill's going to be too high...
...See, every republic has its television, has always had it on the local level, [except for] the Russian Republic...
...If I were taken off the air, then I would go to the press, I'd do public speaking, I'd do press conferences...
...VP: [There] is an attempt on the part of the government to hold on to what is probably the most powerful and the most effective of all the media...
...They're using you for a political purpose...
...I think the situation began to deteriorate seriously towards the end of the Brezhnev period...
...Maybe it's that people have enough common sense...
...Bill me...
...they get the news and they react, but the policymakers—they're playing politics...
...CY: If that is the case, why aren't there a lot of attacks on Sweden...
...VP: I think that maybe it's because people had seen me, watched me...
...Or fill out the form below...
...Of course, they say there is no bad publicity except the obituary...
...If you are satisfied, come on back and sign up for a year...
...If all it takes to be a member of the union is to be a bona fide professional journalist, I don't see how you could possibly exclude Kravchenko...
Vol. 24 • May 1991 • No. 5
