South Africa's Democratic Opposition: An Interview with Chief Buthelezi
Karatnycky, Adrian
Adrian Karatnycky SOUTH AFRICA'S DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION: AN INTERVIEW WITH CHIEF BUTHELEZI Capitalism yes, apartheid no. lYJ-angosuthu Gatsha Buthelezi, Chief Minister of the Zulu nation, is...
...Q: You have argued that unless multinationals join in the struggle for liberty they will be making investments which will not pay off in the long run...
...I was actually the chancellor of the Institute of Industrial Records, based in Durban...
...Regarding the continent as a whole, I just don't think that Africans are Communist inclined...
...That's why I founded Inkatha —for the sole purpose that people need to be mobilized and organized in South Africa...
...The following interview was conducted in New York City last fall, before the decision of the Labor Party to join with the apartheid government...
...Buthelezi: You are correct in asserting that I have always said that apartheid is liviag on borrowed time, time made available only thanks to discords and disputes among organizations...
...Moreover, the entry of the Labor Party into the Botha government is certain to heighten black rage...
...As Chief Minister of KwaZulu, the Zulu homeland...
...By 1980 the code had been adopted by nearly 150 U.S...
...A.K...
...I am not an ideologue...
...They need money to educate their children...
...Buthelezi: I am troubled about it...
...In fact, public opinion surveys have shown that the majority of black people support continued investment by Western capital...
...Q: What is your assessment of the independent, largely black-led trade-union movement in South Africa...
...Buthelezi: I have no economic vision...
...He has at the same time vigorously opposed Prime Minister Pieter Botha's attempts to divide South Africa 's developed white-settled areas from the underdeveloped black-populated "homelands...
...Buthelezi: I am not troubled...
...I do not know what trade-offs have been made between Pretoria and Washington over Namibia, but from our point of view, the South African government hasn't done anything to change the fundamental situation...
...Are you troubled by the wide spread absence of democracy in Africa and in the Third World...
...He has also sought to build a power base through a national cultural and educational movement—Inkatha...
...Buthelezi: We think it's just a "bogey" really...
...Oliver Tambo...
...lYJ-angosuthu Gatsha Buthelezi, Chief Minister of the Zulu nation, is probably South Africa's most influential black political figure...
...There is soaring unemployment...
...I don't have sufficient information...
...The regime seeks to whip up feelings and frighten people with talk of a "Communist onslaught" in order to justify defense expenditures and military conscription...
...requires the development of training programs...
...Clearly they have not yet set their own houses in order...
...There are nearly half a million people around Durban who are squatters and who have no jobs...
...There are so many dichotomies that, apart from stating the potential of trade unions as a powerful force for change, one cannot say they will proceed along this or that path...
...The Russians have always been in Tanzania and Zambia to aid in the construction of the Tanzam line, for instance, yet our people have not become Communists as a result...
...And what is the basis for cooperation between your movement and the independent trade unions...
...firms operating within South Africa...
...There are, of course, some trade-union leaders who have been harassed by the government...
...This decision is a serious blow to Chief Buthelezi's strategy of a nonviolent coalition of blacks and non-whites against apartheid...
...Codes of corporate conduct are also in force for British corporations and for corporations from the European Economic Community...
...They know blacks are going to rule this country one day, and when that day comes we shall not forget...
...And Prime Minister Mugabe has indicated that he will trade even with the devil (i.e...
...More recently, Oliver Tambo and his associates have been attacking me for reasons best known to themselves...
...We have no money to monitor their activities...
...Public-opinion polls consistently show him as the most respected black leader in South Africa...
...Today it would appear that with the growth in support for Andreas Treurnicht s rightist faction and Prime Minister Botha 's reluctance to enact significant reforms...
...Does this also encompass the African National Congress (ANC), which has at times criticized your actions...
...2' You have long been a leading proponent of nonviolent protest and peaceful transformation in South Africa...
...South Africa is undergoing a very serious recession...
...Some have been charged with various things...
...A leading opponent of apartheid and a strong proponent of parliamentary democracy and majority rule, Buthelezi is firmly committed to a course of nonviolent social and political change...
...The immediate threat to peace in South Africa is apartheid and racism, not Communism...
...But because the Reagan Administration has been preoccupied with the Namibian issue, today I cannot say that its policies have helped very much...
...The ordinary man-in-the-street in South Africa has never said he is for disinvestment...
...In the words of Prince Gideon Zulu, an ally of Chief Buthelezi: "If that is [the coloureds'] decision, they will have to live with it...
...I served in that capacity until the institute was dismantled when trade union rights were granted to black people...
...The complication that might precipitate some fragmentation is the government's desire to incorporate the "coloureds" and the Indians into the legislature while excluding blacks...
...I have stated that it has many vagaries and if it doesn't change it has no future in a liberated South Africa...
...So when you ask if the concept of unified action extends to the ANC, I must say that I have never had any problem with the External Mission...
...Q: Is Inkatha helping or encouraging the emergence of these trade unions...
...As far as I'm concerned, there should be cooperation even if we believe in different strategies...
...Chief Buthelezi brings with him a formidable power base— the six-million-strong Zulu nation...
...So when I express support for free enterprise it is not because I am rich or an entrepreneur...
...But at the same time I do not believe that there will be any disinvestment...
...According to this plan, they want to exclude about 70 percent of the population of South Africa...
...He has successfully used South Africa's courts to block government attempts to cede black South African territories to Swaziland...
...South Africa is far from achieving nonviolent evolutionary change...
...I myself was a member of the African National Congress before it was banned [in I960...
...Regrettably, Buthelezi's central position in the struggle against apartheid is rarely acknowledged by the Western media...
...supports "the rights of Blacks to form or belong to government-registered trade unions...
...In fact, some trade unions asked me to launch them...
...With more than 700,000 adherents, Inkatha is the largest and best-organized black organization in South Africa...
...Buthelezi: I have for many years been a crusader for trade unions...
...But they think otherwise...
...The Black Alliance was recently shaken by the decision of one of its members, the coloured Labor Party, to accept Prime Minister Pieter Botha's offer of a subordinate role in a government that continues to exclude blacks...
...But at the same time I would like to make it very clear that there are many tensions and disagreements among the unions...
...Chief Buthelezi's wide-ranging liberation strategy to undermine apartheid is in part predicated on utilizing mechanisms found within the system...
...I don't meet people who are vocal about it but their actions tell me what they think about the capitalist system, despite its vagaries...
...I believe apartheid is a scourge that should be wiped off the face of the earth...
...I can only say that it is my duty as a spokesman for my people to warn these corporations...
...South Africa's largest ethnic group, constituting 20 percent of that country's population...
...They fee...
...And I think whereas the present set-up might encourage polarization between the right wing of the Nationalist Party and the Botha wing, it does not change the fundamental situation of black people who still lack a voice in the government of the country...
...They live in a no-man's land...
...it gives them a stimulus for clinging to one another and acting in ways we do not wish them to act...
...President Machel has tens of thousands of his people working in South African mines because they need jobs...
...provides for equal pay for comparable work, and "equitable wages...
...Is there support among blacks for your economic vision...
...Buthelezi: I am a spokesman for my people...
...So I am not a newcomer to the labor scene...
...We cannot wait for the day when the government might "unban" the ANC and force us to start from scratch...
...It is impossible for us to operate as the ANC in South Africa...
...Q: One basis for some differences between you and the ANC might be your views on economics...
...Q: The white South African establishment produces a great deal of rhetoric about the Communist threat...
...Q: How would you compare the Reagan Administration's South Africa policy to the Carter Administration 's...
...I think that our first task is the liberation of black people, and I do not want to get lost in ideological battles...
...Of course, some trade unions are being manipulated by political opponents outside South Africa who would like to distance the trade-union movement from us...
...If they fall for this thing, it will create polarization not only between black and white, but also between [non-white] groups that were once comrades-in-arms...
...Both President Samora Machel and Prime Minister Robert Mugabe are committed Marxists and yet they have conceded that they have to operate within the capitalist system out of necessity for the subsistence of their people...
...Leon Sullivan, a black minister from Philadelphia who serves on the board of directors of General Motors...
...But at the same time, when I see my people lining up for jobs in Johannesburg, Durban, and other metropolitan areas of South Africa, then I must say that my people vote with their feet for the capitalist system...
...They need money for roofs over their heads...
...Q: What would you say to Americans who sympathize with the struggle against apartheid and urge disinvestment by American corporations as a means of exerting pressure on the Botha regime...
...I do not see Communism as an immediate threat...
...Do you agree that Communism poses a substantial threat in South Africa...
...Buthelezi: I cannot speak for all of them...
...So long as Africa remains impoverished 1 don't think you can have justice, for there is nothing more demeaning than poverty.tice, for there is nothing more demeaning than poverty...
...As for the free-enterprise capitalist system, it has not made the black people of South Africa free...
...South Africa) in the interests of his people...
...I look upon it, ultimately, as a foundation for civil wars, as we can see in other parts of southern Africa...
...So I cannot theorize about disinvestment...
...South African whites enjoy being persecuted...
...It didn't happen in Zimbabwe...
...But the majority of us, who were members of the ANC, are still in South Africa...
...But I have always said that I do not believe Communism is an immediate threat to South Africa...
...corporations have tried to follow the Sullivan code (which I supported because I felt it was a form of pressure that could help my people attain economic justice).* But I can't judge whether they are all adhering to it...
...The President of the ANC at that time, the late Chief Albert Luthuli, then established an external mission headed by Mr...
...My views are dictated by what is best for the people of South Africa...
...But I think it wrong to assume that they and they alone are the spokesmen for the black people of South Africa...
...But having said this, when you mention the ANC, you must go on to define what is meant by the ANC...
...there is not a single trade union which supports the policy of disinvestment...
...That, of course, creates problems at many levels...
...Two years ago the Wiehahn Commission recommended that Africans also participate in the labor movement and the government agreed to allow it...
...Although you have argued against unrestrained capitalism, you are a proponent of a free-market option for South Africa...
...And the majority of these ANC members are members of Inkatha today...
...There you had a small economy and sanctions, but these were not observed, not even by the Soviet Union...
...Earlier we spoke about black trade unions...
...Inkatha is founded on the same ideals propounded by the founding fathers of the ANC in 1912...
...In the past I have met with member* of its Executive...
...Q: I would like to conclude by asking you a more philosophical, or perhaps moral, question...
...We are not part and parcel of it...
...Ever since the ANC has not operated in South Africa...
...Nonetheless, we have a good working relationship, for instance, with the black-led Confederation of Unions of South Africa...
...some trade unions want to be officially registered, others say they will not register...
...Chief Buthelezi is also the chairman of the South African Black Alliance, a confederation including not only Inkatha but also major organizations representing ' 'coloureds'' (i...
...Q: Are you not troubled by the Cuban and Soviet presence in southern Africa...
...My people need jobs...
...would you assess the overall performance of American and Western multinationals active in South Africa...
...Yet despite his recent setback, Chief Buthelezi is still regarded within South Africa as the country's most important opponent of apartheid...
...the catering trade union as well as a branch of FOSATU (the Federation of South African Trade Unions...
...Unlike most of the other actors in South African political life...
...I am a pragmatic politician...
...How, then...
...some have been detained without trial...
...Does the significant attention given by the Western press to the ANC reflect the extent of the ANC's influence in South Africa...
...For all its faults, the free-enterprise system is the only system devised by man that is a potent force for development...
...The code (which is self-enforced) calls for the elimination of "all vestiges of racial discrimination" at the workplace, and for desegregation of "all eating, comfort, and work facilities...
...Adrian Karatnycky is research director of the A. Philip Randolph Institute and associate editor o/Workers Under Communism, a quarterly journal...
...I don't need to theorize about it...
...I believe that the trade unions are a very potent force for change...
...As far as I'm concerned, the presence of Russians and Cubans is of no consequence at all...
...They need money to buy clothing...
...corporations, including most of the major U.S...
...Buthelezi: Well I never try to play the role-of a prophet...
...e., those blacks who are of mixed blood) and Indians...
...It creates problems between Africans and coloureds and Indians, who are all oppressed people...
...Buthelezi: When the Reagan Administration took office and began warming up to South Africa, I thought at first that it was a good thing...
...Chief Buthelezi has implemented an innovative program of education and economic development...
...Q: You have always been a proponent of unified action by anti-apartheid forces...
...that anything, any organizing of people which they do not control, is a threat to themselves...
...The West should act to aid democracy in Africa, but the biggest enemy of Africa is poverty...
...which prefer to report on the activities of the poorly organized and less popular "radical" movements...
...So 1 get my cues from ordinary people...
...Unfortunately, the liberation of black people of South Africa is only delayed by all this infighting...
...I am a leader with a constituency...
...Until recently, blacks were not allowed to become members of the trade-union movement...
...It promotes self-reliance through a program of community development, education, and the provision of welfare services...
...Pressure has brought about changes insofar as some corporations have moved in the direction of economic justice for black people...
...Excluding them from the international community only strengthens their persecution complex and does not make them conducive to change...
...The Sullivan code was drafted in 1977 for U.S.-based multinational corporations by the Rev...
...For instance, some trade unions want to be racially mixed, some want to be black trade unions...
...Do you still believe that violence in South Africa can be avoided...
...This doesn't augur well for the future of the country...
...Yet at the same time the actions of my brothers in Mozambique and in Zimbabwe have actually supported my views...
...Others can afford to theorize in their board rooms or to write about it...
...The racists in South Africa use this as a club with which to hammer us* They always use this as a pretext for arguing that if we had majority rule and there were a preponderance of blacks in government it would be the end of democracy...
...But disinvestment will never happen...
...I have no problems with what the ANC External Mission is doing abroad because they have done a magnificent job at international forums such as the United Nations and the Organization for African Unity...
...The average South African's fear of Communism is obsessive...
...In point of fact...
...and urges "increasing the number of blacks and other non-whites in management and supervisory positions...
...Today, the External Mission of the ANC is represented in the Western media as the sole voice of black people in South Africa...
...I happen to believe that the "leper treatment" sometimes does not work...
...t Buthelezi: The trade-union movement has just been launched...
...I know that some U.S...
...The human rights battle in South Africa continues...
...They were defined out of the movement by the Industrial Conciliation Act...
...Basically, the constitutional proposals of the Prime Minister are a retrogressive step...
Vol. 16 • March 1983 • No. 3
