A MOMENT Interview with NCPAC's Terry Dolan

A MOMENT INTERVIEW WITH NCPAC'S TERRY DOLAN Long before the 1980 elections, attention was already being focused on the political fundraising and media campaigns of the New Right. One group in...

...Well, I'll believe that when I see it...
...White House counselor Edwin Meese approved the AWACS sale...
...Although Steve Symms is not supportive of Israel, he's supportive of a strong America, and I think that's far more important to Israel than direct votes...
...Obviously, their social issue positions and their economic positions, not only their stand on military and foreign policy matters...
...That should have been one of the reasons why they should have opposed it...
...By the way, if you're going to say that Moynihan is different, I'll disagree with you...
...This is what Jimmy Carter proposed...
...When Ted Kennedy comes out and says, "You've done a good job," from my point of view, you've done a bad job...
...When you talk with them, do you discuss foreign policy very much...
...And secondarily, from the economic history of Jews, they have a heck of a lot more in common with free enterprise, capitalist notions than they do with socialist notions...
...I don't mean to say that that's the biggest problem I have with the Reagan Administration by any stretch of the imagination...
...In my mind, he was either directly or indirectly responsible for the destruction of our military capability, for the killing of CIA agents, for the weakening of our defense and for the other things that were hurting us—and still plague us in the Mideast...
...To whom do you look...
...Orrin Hatch...
...Does a candidate's stand on the Mideast ever affect NCPAC's stand on him...
...I can't imagine there'd be any poverty in Israel if they had no socialism...
...As a matter of fact, it might have made political sense for him to gain the opposition of Jews for his own stature...
...I think it would have been stopped if that had happened...
...The question is not so much why they weren't responsive to something which was perceived as being in Israel's interest, but rather this: Since the AWACS issue fundamentally turned on the threat the sale might pose to America's own security—if the Saudis were overthrown, and/or if the Soviets compromised the secrets of the AWACS—how did you justify conservative senators taking a position which might prove injurious to America's defense...
...I was shocked by the level of opposition to Ronald Reagan among conservative advocates...
...Paul Findley (R-Ill...
...The Republican platform said that they supported the appointment of judges who shared a committment to preserving the sanctity of life...
...The answer is because Ronald Reagan said it wasn't...
...But it doesn't surprise me at all that Weinberger favored it...
...This is not 1950 . . . it's going to take a drastic, revolutionary activity, which Reagan has spoken of himself...
...Of all the issues with which you deal, how important is Middle East foreign policy...
...Now, I don't think it's true that the number one issue that concerns Jews is Israel...
...The fact that the Soviets are so anti-Israel and the Israelis are so anti-Soviet I think is very important to conservatives...
...But, I believe the Jewish State would have a far greater concern about its citizens than any other country...
...The difference is in the rhetoric...
...Now, maybe they would...
...You helped elect all these people and you couldn't get them to vote on AWACS...
...With the press promoting Dolan with a certain fearful fascination, GOP leaders understood that as a stalwart of the iconoclastic new right, he threatened both their power and their aim of cementing a center-right coalition...
...I find it absolutely bizarre that Jews are liberal...
...Reagan said he was going to cut federal spending, he was going to cut federal taxes...
...And one of the complaints that I've consistently had with Jewish lobby groups is that they've established no real, meaningful relationship with conservatives in this city, and in this country as well...
...We were against Findley not only because of the PLO...
...Barry Goldwater to be conservative leaders...
...We did, indeed...
...But from my point of view, every day he was in the Senate he was tearing down America...
...that is, there is absolutely no reason [politically] for a conservative to be pro-Israel or pro-Jewish...
...Somebody was complaining...
...At least since 1948, there has been no truer ally to the United States than Israel...
...Alfonse D'Amato (R-N.Y...
...What's your perspective on this...
...He did it with Sandra O'Connor...
...This year, there are a number of people who are considered good friends of Israel whom NCPAC is targeting in its media campaigns in the 1982 elections...
...His Justice Department says it's unconstitutional...
...I think that probably applied in AWACS too...
...Candidates frequently come to Washington to meet with you...
...Have you ever used that as the basis of any outreach to the Jewish community...
...Director Terry Dolan, barely 30, is low-key and friendly in his personal manner, though the intensity of his words belies the conversational tone in which they are spoken...
...We did in fact get into a discussion of economic policy on a couple of occasions during the briefings we had...
...From the point of view of a conservative...
...He comes out and says during the election that he's in favor of tuition tax credits...
...In each instance, the incumbent was subjected to a political attack that was stunning in its harshness and was often personal...
...That's the next question...
...Lowell Weickerof Connecticut and Robert Stafford of Vermont...
...NCPAC's influence has been somewhat overstated...
...That it isn't the Reagan Administration...
...on the basis of his stand in favor of the PLO...
...What were your impressions at the time...
...It's a conservative position that you save money, not that you spend it...
...It's clear in the Constitution...
...Whatever its friends and enemies may think of it, NCPAC is already engaged in a larger, better financed media blitz against liberal Democrats (and two Republicans, Weicker of Connecticut and Stafford of Vermont...
...Well, to me personally it's very important...
...Dan Quayle of Indiana publicly disavowed NCPAC's activities, and several other candidates distanced themselves after Democrats charged that they were being helped by out-of-state carpetbaggers who claimed to know what local residents wanted...
...You know, you guys failed...
...The problem is that the people around him don't support it...
...At least, that's what the survey data says...
...Well, certainly Helms would have to be one of the people...
...I don't believe that the United States should reward intransigence, and I certainly think that we should reward our allies...
...One of the things I think the conservative movement has been most effective in doing in the 1970's—and hopefully in the 1980's as well—has been establishing loose coalitions...
...When it comes down to it, there are maybe twenty or thirty truly decent civilized countries in the world, and two of them happen to be the United States and Israel...
...Jesse Helms...
...Well, excuse me, we did...
...What's the biggest problem you have with the Reagan Administration...
...The last time I did anything in a positive sense...
...I would have said, "Boy, we made the wrong appointment if he applauded it...
...But that's not news to me...
...Now there's not one whom I know who's saying, "I'm not going to support Reagan the next time around...
...Lowell Weicker is the most anti-Republican, anti-Reagan member of the United States Senate and wrong on most issues from our point of view...
...Well, there have...
...NCPAC took a very visible position against Sen...
...Someone who shared the same vision that Ronald Reagan has of America, would immediately say, "Wait a second...
...What do you say to people who contend that a Steve Symms is obviously less supportive of Israel, and in the long run, less helpful to the U.S.-Israel relationship than a Frank Church...
...Many elected officials, many non-elected officials...
...And what is most remarkable is that there isn't one other one in the Mideast...
...There are those who believe that if Reagan fulfills his promises, he'll hurt himself politically...
...That's symptomatic...
...To date it has not been...
...There are a lot of other things...
...It touches on the argument you mentioned earlier—Israel's strategic value...
...I still consider William F. Buckley and Sen...
...I don't mean to say he's a bad guy, or that he's done a miserable job as Secretary of Defense...
...I don't know about Stafford...
...now Sen...
...for example, and looked at the context of the last election results, you wouldn't have voted against AWACS, you would have voted for it, because there's no political reason for him to support AWACS...
...What I think it really comes down to is not Ronald Reagan, but the people around him who do not share the same vision he has of America...
...When we were talking earlier, I should have added that I have a religious belief in the support for Israel—that's one of the factors...
...It's the same kind of appeasement...
...It's not an overwhelming one, but it's one that I think there's enough evidence for...
...We're not looking for a new president...
...Again, back to my comment about why I think the State of Israel is so screwed up economically: I think they're working under the wrong system...
...I would say it is now well over a majority, saying they have very serious reservations...
...That is again: business as usual...
...Oh yes, limiting jurisdiction over school busing and prayer in school...
...Poland—that's what Jimmy Carter would have done with Poland...
...We work with people all the time who disagree with us on many important issues, but because of the overwhelming importance of that one issue, they'll come along with us...
...I talked to the American Jewish Committee, for example, and I'm convinced that they ought to change their name from the American Jewish Committee to the American Liberal Committee, with maybe an asterisk saying, "Most of us are Jewish," or "We have Jewish heritage...
...I really do...
...It was confirmed by some comments they made in regard not only to my meeting, but to other conservative leaders, and I don't take them seriously, Quite honestly, it just isn't something that I have time to do...
...He's a man who as the director of the Office of Management and Budget gave us the first $300 billion and $400 billion budgets...
...He was making us weaker...
...When I saw the way the media were reporting it and what it was in actuality, I wasn't surprised to see that the media were doing a rotten job because they usually do a rotten job...
...Well, to me it does...
...It's explanatory of why they have, what—100 percent inflation this year...
...They include Senators Paul Sarbanes, Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Edward Kennedy...
...The general notion in the State Department that it's business as usual...
...I don't think that we would ever consider supporting somebody who was conservative but for the support of the PLO, because if he supported the PLO, I'd have a real question over whether he understood what conservatism meant...
...Even during the last election campaign, mainstream Republicans and some candidates who stood to gain indirectly from NCPAC's activities were downplaying the organization's clout...
...Yes, very frequently, and usually the Mideast comes up, particularly when it focuses on a religious belief in the support for Israel...
...Generally, I guess I would have to be described as being very pro-Israel— or, alternatively, very anti-Arab, depending on how you want to look at it...
...It's usually in that context that Israel comes up with some of these candidates...
...That was one of the chief justifications that they gave for approving the sale—that Carter had proposed it, and they were obligated to go ahead...
...She was not asked, she would not commit herself to it, and to my mind that violates the promise he made...
...I don't buy this garbage that social concern means liberal...
...Increasing the number of conservative senators in the Senate...
...NCPAC's ads began appearing long before the traditional starting time for political campaigns...
...Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger was a senior officer of the Bechtel Corp., an international building company with extensive business ties to Saudi Arabia.] ^ To put the whole thing in context: I think Ronald Reagan is the best president we've had in twenty years...
...Reagan said he was going to balance the budget...
...If that means making public breaks with the Reagan Administration, we'll probably do it...
...That's what the issue came down to...
...If Jimmy Carter had proposed this, you would have seen conservative senators opposing it in droves...
...It's the same level of patriotism and commitment that I thought the United States used to have and should have...
...We were against him for other reasons as well...
...Maybe the programs I'd agree with, but the philosophy I'd vastly disagree with...
...but unfortunately, they don't have the other things that Israel has: a level of civilization, a sharing of common goals, commitment to democracy, commitment to social values that we happen to hold...
...One of my earlier complaints about Reagan was that he called the SALT II agreement "immoral," yet I presume that most people know today that we are abiding by SALT II, even though we didn't ratify it...
...I know Weicker is for Israel...
...Yes, I was there about two years ago...
...That's all it comes down to...
...I believe that if you are really concerned, if you have a social concern, then you ought to be conservative...
...NCPAC is also focusing on some liberal Republican senators as well...
...That was one of my biggest complaints about it: He was telling the world that nothing has changed in American foreign policy, that America will continue to kick its best allies, if it seems appropriate, and continue to reward those people who oppose us...
...They were essentially interchangeable from one state to the next...
...If you look closely at the American Security Council's ratings of the three of them, I would guess Moynihan has a rating of 10 or 15 and Kennedy and Sarbanes have a zero...
...What are your top priorities for 1982...
...If you went over and did a sophisticated survey of who worked at AIPAC and the American Jewish Committee and all the other Jewish organizations, you'd find an overwhelming number of them—90 percent—would be liberal Democrats, my guess would be...
...Second, I would not broach any issue in that context...
...But looking at a hundred, we'd find disagreement almost all the time...
...In fact, Frank Church was very pro-Israel—I don't deny that—in terms of specific votes related to Israel...
...The ads had two distinguishing features: They claimed to represent the view of a majority of the state's voters, and they did not ask for a vote in favor of any other candidate...
...It was 97 percent when we were there...
...The actual increase in real defense spending has been about one percent...
...to reach out to Jews was an address I made to the executive committee of the American Jewish Committee...
...The people who do it do it because they feel strongly about it...
...I think his position on AWACS was un-conservative...
...The merits became so arguable that it became Ronald Reagan's personal persuasion as president...
...It says in the Constitution, and the Justice Department says otherwise...
...Again, assuming that my equation is correct, that Jews should be interested in Israel more than in anything else, to that end, if you were Al D'Amato [Sen...
...And I think that's a perception that is very, very supportable by the facts, by polling data, by statements by Jewish leaders, that in fact Jews are more interested in being liberals than they are in being Jews...
...He spoke with moment contributing editor Aaron Rosenbaum on January 14, 1981...
...I was shocked at the difference between reality and the perception of reality here over how Israel was treating the Arabs...
...If that happens, I'll usually pass them on to some of our friends downtown who are pro-Israel and whom they might like to contact...
...I don't think he has been...
...I think it was David Ben-Gurion who said to Kennedy, after Kennedy said, "I believe in a strong Israel," "Well, if you believe in a strong Israel, then you'll make America strong, for Israel cannot be strong unless America is...
...Like many activists of the New Right, Dolan is experienced in the ways of modern, demographically targeted advertising and the nuances of recent campaign laws...
...A perfect example was the AWACS thing...
...His appointment of Sandra O'Connor...
...But I don't think it is true...
...When we landed in Tel Aviv, there was a Boy Scout troop, and they started applauding when we landed...
...I think it ought to be true...
...That has got to be a policy of the State Department and the Defense Department, I would presume...
...Right, and of course much more than that...
...I've never seen anybody like that...
...I can't think of an occasion where we did talk about it...
...And frankly, I'm shocked that anyone would say he could possibly be a conservative, and support any type of communication with a Marxist, terrorist organization...
...I was also very much impressed with the nature of the average Israeli...
...As a leader...
...Nothing has changed in the context of our defense activities...
...There are a lot of good, conservative leaders in America today: Helms, Congressman Jack Kemp, Congressman Phil Crane, Sen...
...What was the other position the Justice Department zapped him on...
...It's one of my biggest complaints about Jews...
...Reagan said we were going to stand up to Soviet aggression...
...I would be shocked if Ed Meese would advocate that...
...Third, if I ever did, it certainly wouldn't be AWACS, because as I mentioned earlier, it's an issue conservatives can disagree on...
...But Ronald Reagan said it, and conservatives said: He's president, and we'll go along with him...
...If I were in the Reagan Administration and heard that, I would have been shocked...
...If you take a look at his votes on defense, you'll find the difference is not there...
...Fourth, if you put Terry Dolan and Jerry Falwell against Ronald Reagan—I'd love to think we're as important as some people apparently believe—we're going to lose every time...
...He should have been advocating vastly different philosophies than he has...
...A corollary to that, because it relates to the first two, is getting Ronald Reagan to be a conservative president...
...And quite honestly, I don't believe the American Jewish Committee is interested in reaching out to anybody other than themselves...
...If it's immoral, why are we abiding by it...
...For that reason, I always use my personal viewpoint in trying to encourage the people who are pro-Israel and to discourage those who are anti-Israel from taking those positions...
...They proclaimed that Frank Church was too liberal for Idaho, that John Culver was out of step with lowans...
...He's not being it because I think he does not have the people around him who agree with him, who share the same positions he has...
...Ronald Reagan is far more important...
...One of the criticisms of the conservatives in the Senate, especially those who were elected in 1980 and were at least the partial beneficiaries of NCPAC's work, was that most of them voted in favor of the AWACS...
...First, it has to be electing a conservative House of Representatives...
...Voters were asked if they knew that Senator McGovern (or Bayh or Nelson) had voted to "give away" the Panama Canal, that he was in favor of "forced school busing," that he had undermined America's military...
...Some of them do it because they regard Israel as a strategic asset...
...One of the members of the Reagan Administration recently told me that his particular concern was that nearly all the Jews he ran into were liberals...
...Overall, they are unreconstructed liberals...
...Sarbanes 10.] I don't think that's much of a difference...
...Now I don't call that conservative...
...I think that's ridiculous...
...Beyond the PLO, we haven't touched it very much...
...But there's also sixty or seventy percent of us now saying: We have got to do something about it...
...But you cannot dissuade somebody once he says, "This is a matter of right, it's a matter of integrity, a matter of commitment to the values we believe...
...I mean, it is a common perception, but I just totally reject it...
...I think they do, but I think there are plenty of arguments that that is not the case...
...I was working with people that I would never work with again...
...After the election, newly elected senators jealous of their own prerogatives were at pains to say that they would be independent, concerned first with the interests of the state which had elected them, not controlled or beholden to anyone...
...Have you been to Israel...
...Jews are liberal—they are—survey data shows that—he could make himself the conservative senator and establish a hard core base of support— and opposition—because he isn't going to get Jewish support anyway...
...Does a Jew have to be conservative to talk effectively to conservatives...
...We have friends who are very pro-Israel, and we have friends who are very anti-Israel...
...The level of promise was well, well above the level of performance...
...This is what Ronald Reagan attacked and criticized...
...What he's trying to do is please the New York Times and the Washington Post and his enemies...
...It's one, I think, thatFalwell espouses, and I think there's plenty of reason to believe it...
...Sure, if it's extreme, we wouldn't in any way be involved with them...
...The other thing which I think is important, and I think it is to most conservatives, is the Soviet Union...
...Steve Symms was the beneficiary of that...
...I think the social policy of Israel and its economic policy are absolutely inane, and it's surprising, considering the nature of the people there...
...I think for the policies that we are trying to espouse as a country for our own self-interest, and just the general attitude that we are supposed to be encouraging good values, that we should be supporting Israel...
...It is indisputable that what the NCPAC ads did was undermine the standing of a number of incumbents in their home states and make it possible for conservative candidates to offer themselves as the logical alternative...
...The Arabists in the State Department still run the place . . . Weinberger is not a Reaganite...
...The consensus is on our side of the issue...
...Frank Church...
...We're looking to find the old president...
...They have some personal or moral commitment...
...Could you describe your own stand on the Middle East and how you came to it...
...One group in particular, the National Conservative Political Action Committee, headed by John Terry Dolan, sponsored advertisements that assailed the records of liberal senators in nearly a dozen states...
...I think it's illustrative of one of the problems that we have...
...Touring the refugee camps in particular was very, very enlightening...
...Kennedy and Sarbanes, I assume, fit into NCPAC's definition as being liberal on defense issues and that explains NCPAC 'sjnotiva-tion in opposing them...
...It may surprise people, but I don't believe we need to spend a penny more in defense to be superior to the Soviet Union...
...My criticism is that he could be a much better president, a great president, and he's not...
...Looking at the amount of money we put into Israel, and the belief that our oil will be cut off if we continue, or that there's a threat it could be cut off, and just the numbers in the Mideast in terms of population . . . you can make plenty of support for the opposite argument...
...Look at Ronald Reagan's positions during the 1980 elections...
...He wants to be Franklin Roosevelt and they want him to be Dwight Eisenhower...
...We have not...
...The Administration says it will be seven percent after inflation...
...What were the specific things that struck you about the country— good and bad...
...But it all goes back to the same problem: There isn't political capital in being conservative and pro-Israel...
...I think that's proven by the way things are in Utah...
...You're not going to dissuade anybody at that point...
...Even some of the politicians...
...I can't think of a prominent conservative politician today who would fit into that category...
...Moynihan obviously has a more visible stand on defense issues...
...So what you're saying is that the moral link has much greater suasion and permanence than considerations about the political or strategic value of Israel...
...He's a mainstream Republican...
...I have never seen any survey data that would support that, as a matter of fact...
...Legal action is now pending in several cases where claims have been lodged that NCPAC violated campaign reporting laws by actually supporting certain candidates...
...I said, first, I didn't broach it in the context of "we got you elected...
...Utah has very little welfare, based on the fact that there's a religious sense and an ethic, and I think the same would apply to Israel...
...But in terms of what decides the elections, we never get involved in it...
...Our unwillingness to arm the Afghan rebels, or do something in Angola...
...Editor's note: for 1980, the last year for which it has compiled ratings, the American Security Council, a pro-defense public interest group, rated Kennedy 0; Moynihan 10...
...The American Jewish community as a group is very anti-Soviet...
...We went after Paul Findley [Rep...
...I would encourage, let's say, the Republican party to do it, because I think they are in the business of developing new coalitions, and in all frankness, in America today, "conservative" means Republican, and vice versa...
...I didn't mention Bechtel, of course, but that would have some connection too...
...He speaks of the Reagan revolution, which I support...
...If you're a conservative, you can't count on any votes from Jews because of your position on Israel...
...Now, I don't accept that, but there are arguments, and we can argue it until the cows come home...
...To the committee [NCPAC] it's not important...
...Just isn't...
...we backed off from some of the politicians in light of the AWACS vote...
...I'm sure if we checked their record, we'd find agreement with them on two or three issues...

Vol. 7 • March 1982 • No. 3


 
Developed by
Kanda Sofware
  Kanda Software, Inc.