Correspondence
correspondence To the Editor: My admiration for your October issue exceeds all decent bounds. I read it, literally, from cover to cover and considered my time very well spent—an uncommon...
...Most Americans with a reasonable grasp 01 political realities will disagree with both state...
...He righteously disagrees with the abstract moral proposition that people should oppose tyranny...
...Now it may be, as James Kilpatrick said recently in another journal, that libertarianism suffers from an excess of consistency...
...Of course, Bill Rusher tells us in his New Majority Party book that we must be prepared "to compromise on the economic issues...
...Good grief...
...Anyone at the Philadelphia convention suggesting that the government be constituted on the principle "Hands Off People" would have been laughed out of the room, not because the framers did not mean their words about liberties, but because they recognized the problems involved in providing for their exercise...
...They continued to defend liberty and the values embodied in the American orthodoxy with the same vigor they had mustered in the past...
...To the Editor: In James Q. Wilson's article, "Checking Our Premises on Crime" (June/July 1975 issue of The Alternative), Wilson says, "The passionate debate over the death penalty as a deterrent to murder is difficult to interpret when one remembers the murders one has actually seen...
...etc...
...Similar views can be found in Gold-water's Conscience of a Conservative and the many writings of William Buckley...
...Good grief...
...It was really not until the advent of Barry Goldwater that American opponents of Big Government began to embrace the term conservative...
...She borrows many of the "test questions" from Burnham's Suicide of the West, and claims that to disagree with the statements as listed, is to place oneself in complete agreement with their opposite...
...Like the conservatives who had gone before them, they accepted the term conservative as a mot d'usage and went about their duties, which were the conservation of both liberty and tradition...
...Where did all of this "conservatism" come from...
...Edward J. Lynch Durham, North Carolina To the Editor: In her essay "Conservatism: A Libertarian Challenge" (October 1975 issue of The Alternative) Miss Efron ignores the sound, classically liberal base of American conservatism, and she ignores the powerfully liberal stances articulated by such American conservatives as William Buckley, Frank Meyer, and even Russell Kirk (who has emphasized the importance of human and economic liberty in his The Conservative Mind...
...I'm not sure what logic is studied these days at Harvard (where she gave this address), but most places the first things one learns is that a denial of one assertion is not tantamount to asserting its opposite...
...Under the law of most, if not all, states, the killing Wilson describes would clearly be second-degree murder, if not manslaughter...
...Robert Taft continued to think of himself as an Old Liberal until the day he died...
...It is Professor Page who founders in self-contradiction, not I, as one discovers from a careful reading of his example, so mischievously pocked with quotation marks...
...Few have ever meant a word of it...
...If liberals and conservatives disagree regarding some fundamental characteristics of human nature, they share the recognition, against a libertarian, that human societies involve, among other things, political problems...
...Joe Cobb Chicago, Illinois To the Editor: Edith Efron's gee-whiz attack on "conservatism" ("Conservatism: A Libertarian Challenge," October 1975 issue of The Alternative) is fatally, fundamentally flawed...
...First-degree murder is usually defined as murder by poison, by torture, by lying in wait, or in the commission of a serious felony, such as kidnapping...
...More, the drafters of our Constitution recognized that any system of civil liberties must be guarded by authorities at least equal in strength to those who might threaten the liberties...
...Where did all of this "conservatism" come from...
...As a rule, only first-degree murder would be punishable by death...
...As a rule, the conservative press pretends that libertarians have nothing to say—except for those economists at the University of Chicago who continue to surprise us with new proofs that laissez-faire is optimal...
...This consideration may make the debate over the death penalty easier to interpret...
...In those days I.S.I...
...He then describes a killing committed in the heat of passion in a drunken brawl...
...Ellis B. Page Professor, Educational Psychology University of Connecticut Storrs, Connecticut To the Editor: Miss Efron seems to regard American political history as an account of a series of hypocrites...
...John Paul Woodley, Jr...
...Libertarians do not...
...This old debate should be reopened...
...was the Intercollegiate Society of Individualists, and libertarians like Bob Schuchman were in charge of YAF...
...Before 1932, the term "conservatism" is rarely used in this country...
...Had Miss Efron actually bothered to read my books and articles, along with the books and articles of other conservatives, she might have understood this fact...
...I could not call myself a conservative in, say, Spain or France, or any other country where the conservative tradition is predicated upon authoritarian nostrums...
...So why disagree with the (non-pockmarked) proposition in the first place...
...Anyone at the Philadelphia convention suggesting that the government be constituted on the principle "Hands Off People" would have been laughed out of the room, not because the framers did not mean their words about liberties, but because they recognized the problems involved in providing for their exercise...
...Hayek and Robert Nozick...
...Of course, Bill Rusher tells us in his New Majority Party book that we must be prepared "to compromise on the economic issues...
...Witonski claims "knowledge" of a brutish world that he simultaneously concedes to be a product of his imagination...
...Is the important substance of the anti-socialist, pro-civilization political philosophy to be found in the mystical writings of traditionalists, or in the critical writings of libertarians such as F.A...
...They continued to defend liberty and the values embodied in the American orthodoxy with the same vigor they had mustered in the past...
...I clearly indicated, however, that these were not universally held views, and that the passage Professor Page cites pertained only to those who held them, in whole or in qualified form...
...She asserts, "...American thinkers and politicians have talked piously about the inalienable individual right to liberty...
...During the period of the Roosevelt administration, the critics of the New Deal described themselves as liberals...
...This statement requires an extremely tunnel-visioned reading of the Declaration of Independence...
...As it is, she's purely an amateur...
...Witonski claims "knowledge" of a brutish world that he simultaneously concedes to be a product of his imagination...
...Joe Cobb Chicago, Illinois To the Editor: Edith Efron's gee-whiz attack on "conservatism" ("Conservatism: A Libertarian Challenge," October 1975 issue of The Alternative) is fatally, fundamentally flawed...
...Lynch hears the laughter of long-dead men...
...It is Professor Page who founders in self-contradiction, not I, as one discovers from a careful reading of his example, so mischievously pocked with quotation marks...
...That is the essence of illogic...
...Peter P. Witonsld Stanford, California Edith Efron replies: Professor Page is only apparently correct...
...Witonski and Lynch, they do not acknowledge or rebut any of my themes or arguments...
...On the other hand, Ef ron argues that they are asserting the following: "I accept dictatorships and tyrannies...
...Witonski and Lynch, they do not acknowledge or rebut any of my themes or arguments...
...They quite often used the terms Old Liberal, nineteenth-century Liberal, and classical Liberal to differentiate their position from that of FDR, who also called himself a liberal...
...From the days of the New Deal, the Right was staunchly libertarian, in the tradition of Jefferson and Madison...
...This point has been well made by the late Frank Meyer in his book In Defense of Freedom: A Conservative Credo...
...Few have ever meant a word of it...
...The passage in Mr...
...Except for a certain, shall we say, exuberant disregard for logical precision (as in her assault on Burn...
...She does not quote Burnham's libertarian Congress and the American Tradition...
...Having set up her straw man, Miss Efrot waxes hysterical: "Was this what was tucker away behind these concepts of Authority, Tra dition, Order, and Duty which, somehow were never derived, defined, or illustrated' Tradition for the sake of Tradition—even i that tradition is enslaving you...
...As a rule, the conservative press pretends that libertarians have nothing to say—except for those economists at the University of Chicago who continue to surprise us with new proofs that laissez-faire is optimal...
...Buckley emerges from Miss Efron's pages under a cloud (she never quite manages to accuse him of being an authoritarian), and James Burnham's splendid tract, The Suicide of the West, becomes the main source of American conservative prejudice...
...As an example, take her "Liberal Sentence 5.) A popular movement or revolt against a tyranny or dictatorship is right, and deserves approval...
...I am against meddling in the private lives of individuals...
...Such a scale still permits the discrimination between the liberal and conservative temperaments, and doesn't lead to the absurdities upon which Efron has based her whole diatribe...
...Reagan's bandwagon...
...As for Messrs...
...The appellation "conservative" did not transform Roosevelt's critics into authoritarians...
...Both play games of "let's pretend...
...Most of all I admired Edith Efron's "libertarian challenge" to conservatism...
...Both liberals and conservatives seek a reconciliation of some human freedom with the social order essential to the protection of the freedom itself...
...As a rule, only first-degree murder would be punishable by death...
...To the Editor: In James Q. Wilson's article, "Checking Our Premises on Crime" (June/July 1975 issue of The Alternative), Wilson says, "The passionate debate over the death penalty as a deterrent to murder is difficult to interpret when one remembers the murders one has actually seen...
...It was a sad development...
...Wilson's article was, of course, a purely parenthetical aside, and criticism of it in no way reflect upon the general excellence of the article...
...Today, to agree flatly with this seems idiotic—when so-called "popular" movements are often more totalitarian than the "dictatorships" they seek to replace...
...Similar views can be found in Gold-water's Conscience of a Conservative and the many writings of William Buckley...
...Witonski pretends I did not admire the liberty-loving aspect of conservative thought, and Mr...
...Despite her distaste for the "fusion of metaphysics and pop-sociology" which she attributes to conservatives, Miss Efron overlooks the lessons which these disciplines might teach her regarding the "libertarian challenge...
...For such figures as William Buckley, Frank Meyer, and Barry Goldwater, the advocacy of conservatism did not mean that they were happy with the status quo in post-New Deal America...
...Liberals do, too...
...Because Professor Page wants to be free to eat his liberty while having it too...
...The term conservative was coined, in this country, by the pro-New Deal press, and applied to those politicians who stood in opposition to the reforms of the New Deal...
...It is justified by facts: the most conscious, explicit religious authoritarians, censors, and racial and religious bigots, as well as apologists for religious-military dictatorships form part of the conservative constellation...
...And both retreat into fantasy...
...and only such a killing would possibly be deterred...
...She persists in speaking in dichotomous terms, finding essential contradictions in both the liberal and the conservative traditions...
...For it is the greatest virtue of Miss Efron's essay that she shows how statist is the central thrust of conservative doctrine today...
...On the other hand, Ef ron argues that they are asserting the following: "I accept dictatorships and tyrannies...
...The signers of that document knew that individual liberty was not simply an inalienable right, but one which governments had alienated, repeatedly, throughout history...
...Robert Taft continued to think of himself as an Old Liberal until the day he died...
...They quite often used the terms Old Liberal, nineteenth-century Liberal, and classical Liberal to differentiate their position from that of FDR, who also called himself a liberal...
...Lexington, Virginia The Alternative: An American Spectator December 1975 37 correspondence To the Editor: My admiration for your October issue exceeds all decent bounds...
...The passage in Mr...
...But this leap is a foreshortening of my reasoning process, not a contradiction either of my thesis or of reality...
...All the pious and disingenuous rhetoric about "freedom" in all the National Reviews ever printed cannot hide the fact: conservatives want to use the coercive power of the state to impose their own views on everybody else...
...The signers of that document knew that individual liberty was not simply an inalienable right, but one which governments had alienated, repeatedly, throughout history...
...ham), her differentiation of libertarianism from conservatism was precise and to the point...
...It both illustrates the theme of my essay and explains why I chose to present the conservative sentences as I did...
...Thank you for printing the Efron article...
...Such measurement techniques assume that one's agreement or disagreement to such sweeping statements is, inherently, qualified...
...As for Messrs...
...Such measurement techniques assume that one's agreement or disagreement to such sweeping statements is, inherently, qualified...
...ments, but this possibility she claims to be im possible...
...Having set up her straw man, Miss Efrot waxes hysterical: "Was this what was tucker away behind these concepts of Authority, Tra dition, Order, and Duty which, somehow were never derived, defined, or illustrated' Tradition for the sake of Tradition—even i that tradition is enslaving you...
...That is a minor fault, if any at all, in contrast to the statist pretensions of liberals and conservatives alike...
...Despite her distaste for the "fusion of metaphysics and pop-sociology" which she attributes to conservatives, Miss Efron overlooks the lessons which these disciplines might teach her regarding the "libertarian challenge...
...The appellation "conservative" did not transform Roosevelt's critics into authoritarians...
...And both retreat into fantasy...
...For such figures as William Buckley, Frank Meyer, and Barry Goldwater, the advocacy of conservatism did not mean that they were happy with the status quo in post-New Deal America...
...Most Americans with a reasonable grasp 01 political realities will disagree with both state...
...From the days of the New Deal, the Right was staunchly libertarian, in the tradition of Jefferson and Madison...
...Liberals do, too...
...Both liberals and conservatives seek a reconciliation of some human freedom with the social order essential to the protection of the freedom itself...
...Back in 1961, students of Prof...
...She persists in speaking in dichotomous terms, finding essential contradictions in both the liberal and the conservative traditions...
...I am against Big Government...
...Buckley emerges from Miss Efron's pages under a cloud (she never quite manages to accuse him of being an authoritarian), and James Burnham's splendid tract, The Suicide of the West, becomes the main source of American conservative prejudice...
...Reagan's bandwagon...
...Worst of all, has the BuckleyKirk-Burnham "conservatism" achieved any victories in its twenty years of intellectual prominence...
...was the Intercollegiate Society of Individualists, and libertarians like Bob Schuchman were in charge of YAF...
...Before 1932, the term "conservatism" is rarely used in this country...
...ham), her differentiation of libertarianism from conservatism was precise and to the point...
...ments, but this possibility she claims to be im possible...
...Thus most conservatives will state that they do not agree...
...All the pious and disingenuous rhetoric about "freedom" in all the National Reviews ever printed cannot hide the fact: conservatives want to use the coercive power of the state to impose their own views on everybody else...
...That is a minor fault, if any at all, in contrast to the statist pretensions of liberals and conservatives alike...
...This consideration may make the debate over the death penalty easier to interpret...
...With the death of of Frank Chodorov and Bob Schuchman in the mid-1960s, however, the Motherhood, God, and Country crowd closed ranks...
...The coalition which supported Taft in 1952 was the basic opposition to the international and domestic interventionist policies of Roosevelt and his left-wing advisors...
...Edward J. Lynch Durham, North Carolina To the Editor: In her essay "Conservatism: A Libertarian Challenge" (October 1975 issue of The Alternative) Miss Efron ignores the sound, classically liberal base of American conservatism, and she ignores the powerfully liberal stances articulated by such American conservatives as William Buckley, Frank Meyer, and even Russell Kirk (who has emphasized the importance of human and economic liberty in his The Conservative Mind...
...I read it, literally, from cover to cover and considered my time very well spent—an uncommon experience for so irascible and easily bored a reader as myself...
...and only such a killing would possibly be deterred...
...It is justified by facts: the most conscious, explicit religious authoritarians, censors, and racial and religious bigots, as well as apologists for religious-military dictatorships form part of the conservative constellation...
...In those days I.S.I...
...etc...
...I leave it to the reader to contemplate the implications of such "refutations...
...Thus most conservatives will state that they do not agree...
...So why disagree with the (non-pockmarked) proposition in the first place...
...Nonsense...
...The term conservative was coined, in this country, by the pro-New Deal press, and applied to those politicians who stood in opposition to the reforms of the New Deal...
...They knew that the struggle to regain their alienated liberties required substantial risk of their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor...
...Is the important substance of the anti-socialist, pro-civilization political philosophy to be found in the mystical writings of traditionalists, or in the critical writings of libertarians such as F.A...
...He then describes a killing committed in the heat of passion in a drunken brawl...
...I am against Big Government...
...If liberals and conservatives disagree regarding some fundamental characteristics of human nature, they share the recognition, against a libertarian, that human societies involve, among other things, political problems...
...Libertarians do not...
...For it is the greatest virtue of Miss Efron's essay that she shows how statist is the central thrust of conservative doctrine today...
...and disapprove of revolutions against them...
...F. A. Hayek(who included the postscript, "Why I Am Not a Conservative," in his noted book The Constitution of Liberty, in 1960) published a journal called the New Individualist Review and regularly denounced conservatives such as Buckley and Burnham for polluting the movement...
...Indeed, it has been so many years since "conservatives" were anywhere near enjoying political influence that we observe today the last ditch effort to change the label to "populism" and recruit the followers of Gov...
...And Mr...
...Conservatism as a political movement in the United States does not emerge until the period after the election of FDR...
...This was a libertarian opposition...
...The point I have tried to make in my writings on the subject is that there is no conservative gestaltprinzip...
...I did leap deliberately to the dark underside of agestalt which is so consistently opposed to a whole battery of twenty statements safeguarding individual rights...
...but I am also against the Hobbesian nightmare world of the extreme libertarians, for I know that to be a place where life is nasty, brutish, and short, a place that never existed (save in barbarous times), and a place that I hope will never exist...
...She does not quote Burnham's libertarian Congress and the American Tradition...
...As an example, take her "Liberal Sentence 5.) A popular movement or revolt against a tyranny or dictatorship is right, and deserves approval...
...The point I have tried to make in my writings on the subject is that there is no conservative gestaltprinzip...
...The Alternative be praised for providing Miss Efron a forum for making that distinction so eloquently and so well...
...I did leap deliberately to the dark underside of agestalt which is so consistently opposed to a whole battery of twenty statements safeguarding individual rights...
...Both of these contradictions, however, reflect the common tension of the American political experience...
...But this leap is a foreshortening of my reasoning process, not a contradiction either of my thesis or of reality...
...It was really not until the advent of Barry Goldwater that American opponents of Big Government began to embrace the term conservative...
...Lynch pretends I have never heard the conventional explanation of how our system works...
...I am against meddling in the private lives of individuals...
...Karl O'Lessker Bloomington, Indiana To the Editor: I was very pleased to see the article by Edith Efron, "Conservatism [etc.]," in your October 1975 issue...
...Albert Jay Nock, that singular champion of individual liberty, was even described—much to his own chagrin—as a Tory...
...Even her own "libertarian" cause deserves better intellectual representation than this...
...Back in 1961, students of Prof...
...I leave it to the reader to contemplate the implications of such "refutations...
...It both illustrates the theme of my essay and explains why I chose to present the conservative sentences as I did...
...Thus, the death penalty would not be at all applicable to the killing Wilson describes, much less intended to deter it...
...The Alternative be praised for providing Miss Efron a forum for making that distinction so eloquently and so well...
...and disapprove of revolutions against them...
...And Mr...
...Conservatism as a political movement in the United States does not emerge until the period after the election of FDR...
...This statement requires an extremely tunnel-visioned reading of the Declaration of Independence...
...He righteously disagrees with the abstract moral proposition that people should oppose tyranny...
...Hayek and Robert Nozick...
...John Paul Woodley, Jr...
...The coalition which supported Taft in 1952 was the basic opposition to the international and domestic interventionist policies of Roosevelt and his left-wing advisors...
...Only a willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing would be punishable by death, under American law...
...Does "conservatism" have anything to contribute, or is it the case—as Ronald Reagan has said—that"libertarianism is the heart and soul of conservatism...
...Most of all I admired Edith Efron's "libertarian challenge" to conservatism...
...Most of all I admired Edith Efron's "libertarian challenge" to conservatism...
...Witonski pretends I did not admire the liberty-loving aspect of conservative thought, and Mr...
...F. A. Hayek(who included the postscript, "Why I Am Not a Conservative," in his noted book The Constitution of Liberty, in 1960) published a journal called the New Individualist Review and regularly denounced conservatives such as Buckley and Burnham for polluting the movement...
...Thank you for printing the Efron article...
...But he ends up, himself, opposing two types of tyranny, in the very name of abstract moral opposition to tyranny...
...Only a willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing would be punishable by death, under American law...
...Lynch pretends I have never heard the conventional explanation of how our system works...
...Karl O'Lessker Bloomington, Indiana To the Editor: I was very pleased to see the article by Edith Efron, "Conservatism [etc.]," in your October 1975 issue...
...I could not call myself a conservative in, say, Spain or France, or any other country where the conservative tradition is predicated upon authoritarian nostrums...
...This old debate should be reopened...
...In research methods classes, we try to fan out the spectrum of agreement to such statements, with responses running from "Complete agreement" to "Complete disagreement...
...Does "conservatism" have anything to contribute, or is it the case—as Ronald Reagan has said—that"libertarianism is the heart and soul of conservatism...
...Had Miss Efron actually bothered to read my books and articles, along with the books and articles of other conservatives, she might have understood this fact...
...Except for a certain, shall we say, exuberant disregard for logical precision (as in her assault on Burn...
...I read it, literally, from cover to cover and considered my time very well spent—an uncommon experience for so irascible and easily bored a reader as myself...
...Wilson's article was, of course, a purely parenthetical aside, and criticism of it in no way reflect upon the general excellence of the article...
...Indeed, it has been so many years since "conservatives" were anywhere near enjoying political influence that we observe today the last ditch effort to change the label to "populism" and recruit the followers of Gov...
...Worst of all, has the BuckleyKirk-Burnham "conservatism" achieved any victories in its twenty years of intellectual prominence...
...Thus, the death penalty would not be at all applicable to the killing Wilson describes, much less intended to deter it...
...Peter P. Witonsld Stanford, California Edith Efron replies: Professor Page is only apparently correct...
...It was a sad development...
...Order for tit+ 36 The Alternative: An American Spectator December 197 sake of Order—even if you are in the grip of a tyrant...
...She asserts, "...American thinkers and politicians have talked piously about the inalienable individual right to liberty...
...Except for a certain, shall we say, exuberant...
...As it is, she's purely an amateur...
...Ellis B. Page Professor, Educational Psychology University of Connecticut Storrs, Connecticut To the Editor: Miss Efron seems to regard American political history as an account of a series of hypocrites...
...Now it may be, as James Kilpatrick said recently in another journal, that libertarianism suffers from an excess of consistency...
...They knew that the struggle to regain their alienated liberties required substantial risk of their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor...
...Lexington, Virginia The Alternative: An American Spectator December 1975 37 correspondence To the Editor: My admiration for your October issue exceeds all decent bounds...
...Lynch hears the laughter of long-dead men...
...This was a libertarian opposition...
...That is the essence of illogic...
...Because Professor Page wants to be free to eat his liberty while having it too...
...First-degree murder is usually defined as murder by poison, by torture, by lying in wait, or in the commission of a serious felony, such as kidnapping...
...Wallace to Gov...
...More, the drafters of our Constitution recognized that any system of civil liberties must be guarded by authorities at least equal in strength to those who might threaten the liberties...
...Both play games of "let's pretend...
...Both of these contradictions, however, reflect the common tension of the American political experience...
...But, as an American, I gladly embrace the term, because I understand the American orthodoxy as being a liberal orthodoxy, and, like most of my fellows, I wish to conserve it...
...During the period of the Roosevelt administration, the critics of the New Deal described themselves as liberals...
...I clearly indicated, however, that these were not universally held views, and that the passage Professor Page cites pertained only to those who held them, in whole or in qualified form...
...But he ends up, himself, opposing two types of tyranny, in the very name of abstract moral opposition to tyranny...
...This point has been well made by the late Frank Meyer in his book In Defense of Freedom: A Conservative Credo...
...Nonsense...
...But, as an American, I gladly embrace the term, because I understand the American orthodoxy as being a liberal orthodoxy, and, like most of my fellows, I wish to conserve it...
...Under the law of most, if not all, states, the killing Wilson describes would clearly be second-degree murder, if not manslaughter...
...but I am also against the Hobbesian nightmare world of the extreme libertarians, for I know that to be a place where life is nasty, brutish, and short, a place that never existed (save in barbarous times), and a place that I hope will never exist...
...Albert Jay Nock, that singular champion of individual liberty, was even described—much to his own chagrin—as a Tory...
...Today, to agree flatly with this seems idiotic—when so-called "popular" movements are often more totalitarian than the "dictatorships" they seek to replace...
...Wallace to Gov...
...Like the conservatives who had gone before them, they accepted the term conservative as a mot d'usage and went about their duties, which were the conservation of both liberty and tradition...
...I read it, literally, from cover to cover and considered my time very well spent—an uncommon experience for so irascible and easily bored a reader as myself...
...She borrows many of the "test questions" from Burnham's Suicide of the West, and claims that to disagree with the statements as listed, is to place oneself in complete agreement with their opposite...
...Even her own "libertarian" cause deserves better intellectual representation than this...
...I'm not sure what logic is studied these days at Harvard (where she gave this address), but most places the first things one learns is that a denial of one assertion is not tantamount to asserting its opposite...
...Such a scale still permits the discrimination between the liberal and conservative temperaments, and doesn't lead to the absurdities upon which Efron has based her whole diatribe...
...In research methods classes, we try to fan out the spectrum of agreement to such statements, with responses running from "Complete agreement" to "Complete disagreement...
...With the death of of Frank Chodorov and Bob Schuchman in the mid-1960s, however, the Motherhood, God, and Country crowd closed ranks...
...Order for tit+ 36 The Alternative: An American Spectator December 197 sake of Order—even if you are in the grip of a tyrant...
Vol. 9 • December 1975 • No. 3
